Occupy Dame Street: DayTwenty One

by voros jaded Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:07

worth watching - worth sharing.

by Dunk Sun Oct 30, 2011 13:28

Firstly, well done dave, again, much thanks for capturing, archiving, sharing... keep it up

Sad to see things getting messy, this point (how members of political partys are welcomed to OCCUPY, participate with it, respect the "no banners" call) and needs to be nailed on the head, cork are getting there, listen to their proposal statement vid at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5QxwjRVPtQ

Anyway, back to the problem at hand in dublin and how it can be overcome...

*** EC:

Watch the SWP pack an #occupydamestreet assembly. The big guns turning up suddenly. Calling us 'Thatcher's Children' again. Disgusting.

The most cynical thing about this is that the SWP big guns waited until the attrition of 3 weeks camping and organising had exhausted and dispersed the majority of occupiers. They contribuited NOT A JOT to anything that #occupy has done in last 20 days and yet pull this. I really want to know who even mandated those who 'negotoiated' with 'Enough/SWP' to do so on behalf of ODS?

So folks - the message is - if you want this thing to develop - pack the assemblies from now on with good peeps who understand the concept of mutual respect, solidarity and mutual aid. The SWP have had 30 years to kick off their revolution - they are failures and parasites and it is time to shake them out of the hair of a genuine extra-parliamentary left.

*** Response from HS:

Firstly have to say I am impressed with the open assemblies and the broadcasting of such assemblies. Also I can see the fear of swp taking over, I got involved with the Housing Action Campaign which was a textbook example. However if you do have open assemblies people may actually show up (even if in a ham fisted manner).You could always ask for voting rights at SWP cc meetings in return :-).

However I do believe the anti-political thing is incorrect, for me the most impressive speaker in the video is a member of the WSM, a political party. At a certain point if you want to reach the 99% that will have to include such people as myself, a member of a very imperfect political party (The Socialist Party), . Many of us concerned with struggle have joined various political parties as a way of fighting socially and politically. ( personally I don't believe the individualisation and atomisation of problems does us any favours). Obviously don't let anyone take over, don't become part of a front, but don't live in glorious isolation either, and don't make assumptions about all members of parties.

Related discussion on the FB page, and theres plenty chat on this there...

http://www.facebook.com/OccupyDameStreet/posts/31254300...62395

*** NK: 

Caption: Video Id: p5QxwjRVPtQ Type: Youtube Video
occupy cork draft proposal

by deja vu Sun Oct 30, 2011 13:44

Well done fending off the SWP vampires.
The Occupy movement is dynamic for the very reason that it has broken with the old school tactics of manipulation and exploitation of campaigns co-opted by the SWP et al.

This looks very much like the SWP run Irish Anti-War Movement relation with the Shannon Peace Camp in Jan 03.

These SWP cultists really believe we all really in deseprate need of their rrrrrrrrrrevolutionary leadership (even though their anti-direct action/ sucking up to the Labor Party politics are extremely moderate and seen as  increasingly irrelevant).

It's not so much the Trotskyist nightmare they are pursuing, as their complete lack of mutuality with the rest of the movement.

They have failed to put capitalism and the war on the map through their boring disempowering A to B cattle drives and controlled platform rallies.....They have failed where the more libertarian Occupy movement has scceeded, that is why they have to go into control or destroy mode in relation to Occupy Dame St.

It is exhasting to fend these vamps off...they offer nothing to the movement. They are a virus, the first line of policing of any movement or campaign that springs up.

A good analysis of how they work is contained here in the Schwnews produced "Monopolise Resistance"
http://www.schnews.org.uk/monopresist/monopoliseresista...x.htm

by Socialistfeminist - none Sun Oct 30, 2011 16:02

That is pretty funny  in the video that Dicto Donal (the first speaker) doesn't mention he is on the central commitee of the swp or editor of the swp newspaper- typical of the cowardly, weasel ,underhand tactics of the swp. I am happy to 'witchhunt' or 'demonise' the swp because I didn't hand over money out of my disability benefit for their papers so they could go and spend my money on fags. Standing on the street taking money off poor people for papers and not bothering to send them any papers is not what good people do, it is what bad people do.

 In my opinion as a former member of the swp they are the most unreliable people in the country. Thier central commitee is so deluded they sent someone to take over my local area in Rathmines where she doesn't even live! The first thing she did was get a debt for 65 euros in the community centre and refuse to apologise.

Most of their central committee  work in universities so they gave me the impression that people who work in universities have special rights to blow thier noses with other people's money and piss on the toes of local people in our local communitees -like local me in my local community.

They completly hijacked and sloganised the term 'grassroots democracy' for electioneering as pbp. The term 'grassroots democracy' comes from the anti-globalisation movement and actually carries some value or meaning, it's not meant to be just an empty slogan.

According to her and the cc of the swp they should have the power to decide who may engage in the imaginary 'grassroots democracy' and who may not. They consider themselves to have the right to send outsiders into my area and tell me I'm too 'intimidating' to attend the local pbp meeting purely because I asked (demanded) accountability about thier irresponsible attitude to money-where they get off-not one of them is even from the area or went to school there like me or even knows much about the local area or gives a shit about it otherwise they wouldn't go getting debts in the community centre with other people's money.

They think it's grand to send Dicto Donal to piss on the toes of local people in Belfast because they are so deluded that they have some special rights as the 'enlightened' people.

As a member of the pbp for 3 years I was never asked for my vote on anything at all even once, all they are looking for is an audience for boring old academic leftie wingbags. They excluded me from chairing even 1 public meeting in either the pbp or the swp because of outright social discrimination. I've been to thier marxism event in London where more than halfdozen people in wheelchairs had no wheelchair access to the talk on disability which was moved to 3 different rooms over 2 days. As a victim of the swp I would like the swp to be sued for discrimination and I'm glad the real rebels on dame st saw sense and told them to take a hike.

by f Sun Oct 30, 2011 21:47

The SWP have the anti Midas touch when it comes to genuine campaigns in Dublin. Everything they come in contact with turns to shit. They jump on it for a few weeks and suck the life out of it, any genuine activists drift away when their movement is co-opted, and then the newly subsumed swp front vanishes into thin air in a few weeks time. They'll have gotten a few new recruits but turned many more away from political organisation. Dame Street camp should tell them they are welcome to come along - but no banners, no paper selling, and no speechifiying about their party or other fronts they are involved in.

I dont know if the camp people read this site - I hope they do. I feel that many of them are new to political campaigning, and wont be overly familiar with the SWP's methods. I can only hope they take advice from others with experience of their chicanery.

by Brían ó Cualáin Mon Oct 31, 2011 00:04

As a start I'll jsut lay it down that I am a member of SWP but I have not put that in the Organisation text box because I am not posting this as their rep. That said, obviously I am not completely immune to the invective directed at the SWP in the above comments. It was stated above that the SWP (cynically) waited until attrition and worn down the numbers in the Occupy camp before moving in so they could influence things. Isn't it possible that the opposite is the case and that it was in an effort to continue the momentum? I don't know about the stories of SWP intervention lsited above by other commententators as I don't live in Dublin. If it's true then I'm a bit concernced but then I haven't heard the other side of the story either. What I do know is that the SWP have been fully involved in the Enough campaign for well over 6 months now and I have been involced in that too. I think its legitimate that oppositional movements are supportive of each other. I don't agree that its right to tar SWP with the broad brush that it is a political party and therefore just as much part of the problem as those who have had an influence in how things have turned out. Someone mentioned that the SWP have had 30 years to have their revolution (might have been on another related site) but you know 30 years is nothing. How many years did it take for the Irish to win independence from Britain (not that I would consider this state or this system in any way independent). The thing is that the conditions that have led to the Occupy movement have been there all along and the SWP and others on the left have been saying this all during the "tigger" years and were at best laughed off as loonies or simply ignored, but at least the movement was still there. 1916 didn't happen overnight because a bunch of previously unknown malcontents decided to have a shooting match, it came about by building carefully and methodically and happened at that time due to "England's difficulty". Sure I'm simplifying things but you get the picture. I'm not saying Occupy doesn't have the solid foundation that a movement needs in order to stay the course. It was mentioned that SWP infiltrated a number of activities in the Dublin area and that the aim of that was to suck the life out of those and then move on when that was done. Just think about that .... why would SWP (or any other movement) spend time and energy on participation in an activity simply in order to take the steam out of it? What is the gain, its not as if SWP is some covert part of the establisment hanging around in the shadows ready to pounce on some peoples movements in order to drain the life out of it. To me that doesn't ring true. I live and work in the west, have a family with kids and it is pretty much a 16 -17 hour day just doing that. I still try my best to be positive and proactive in trying to do something to make the future a better place for my kids. I'm not into the usual socialist rhetoric but I believe that it comes closer to the values of the alleged J H fucking Christ than the values that most of the so called Christians that live all around me giving their allegiance to right wing ideas and idealogies do. You want blood sucking vampires? That would be the building behind you in Dame Street.

by f Mon Oct 31, 2011 18:19

Brian, these are some of the campaigns in Dublin that I can think of that the SWP muscled in on or destroyed over the years with takeovers and anti democratic manouvering. I am sure there are others, these are just off the top of my head.

Reclaim The Streets - After the police attacked the 2002 mayday party, the SWP front Globalise Resistance then took credit for organising the event in the first place, and showed up at the anti police brutality protest afterwards, giving speeches, selling papers, etc.

The Irish Social Forum was ran into the ground by the SWP when they tried to tie it into their "Another Europe is Possible" front / campaign. People who didnt want to link with them were accused of sectarianism or not caring about unity (the same arguments rehashed in that video above, by the SWP arriving en masse at the dame street camp)

The Irish Anti War Movement committee was stacked with SWP supporters who did not agree with the bulk of the members wanting to get involved in direct actions. They eventually left and formed Anti War Ireland out of frustration, but then that died too, and the anti war movement in Ireland trailed off into nothing.

People involved in the Anti Nazi League (another SWP front / campaign) got disillusioned and formed Residents Against Racism.

I am sure there are other examples. I havent been involved much in recent years in activism.

by Séan Irsach - Sovereign Citizen of the Republic of Éire Tue Nov 01, 2011 08:40

On Friday evening 27th of October at ODS a member of the public was assaulted while being refused to video a speaker. The speaker had requested earlier that her photograph was not to be taken. She was informed that no photograph was taken of her. Another photograph was taken and the speaker returned to complain again at which point she was told it was not her the photograph was being taken and that she must be very vain. When she started speaking on the megaphone I was assaulted and prevented filming by 2 men. This is despicable behavior from the organisers of Occupy Dame Street who are pertaining to include the 99% of the people while asking for public support. ODS is compounding the already corrupt system we already live. Abusing who they please at their protest is not tolerated. This incident was passed off as a 'misunderstanding'. I can assure you this was no misunderstanding. A photographer was prevented and assaulted while filming. The photographer in question is an active protestor against the church, state and governments involvement in 90 years of generational genocidal on Irish children. ACCAI went along to Occupy Dame Street on the 12th of October to show solidarity with their protest. Our banners caused quite a stir from ODS who came over to say they were in no way associated with our group. We agreed, we weren't but were they're supporting. ACCAI stayed for about an hour and a half and left. The members of ACCAI have attended the protest since on a number of occasions as individuals to donate and to support. That respect has been truly tarnished. ACCAI are abuse survivors which makes the attack all the more heartless. We are no strangers to abuse, it lives with us 24/7 since childhood. We have been accused of trying to 'hi-jack' the ODS protest. This needs to be addressed immediately to prevent further attack on our group or as individuals. A 'Hunger Strike' protest will be place on Occupy Dame at 1pm 1st November 2011 for an apology and to stop further abuses taking place.

by Hanora Brennan - Citizen of Ireland Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:44 bogtrotter at eircom dot net 3 Ard Aoibhinn, Mill Road, Inistioge, Co. Kilkenny 056 7758731 or 087 7479324

Why do we as a nation just breeze along and accept these 3rd rate people who are duly elected to represent us. Have we no moral courage that every 'cute hoor' from the four corners of Ireland is accepted willy nilly.

Are any of our current Ministers actually qualified for posts they occupy apart from Shatter in Justice and we've seen his arrogance towards the Electorate regarding the Consitutional amendment?

We have to screen our politicians closer so as to ensure that the naivete that has been displayed by serving dynasties is not repeated. We need proper represenation not just any second or third class 'cute hoor' with connections.

Tell the Govt. how you feel, don't just wait for elections, keep at them, hound them, harass them until they listen and then wait for the mass exodus of 'chancers'.

We can do this but only with unity not wth the backstabbing and bitching that is endemic in the country. Time to strap on a pair and grow up.

by Andrew - personal capacity Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:57

John Deegan what happened with your video is quite simple.

The level of attention you were paying to the woman in the red scarf was making her uncomfortable and she came over to you and politely asked you to stop taking her photograph. You started freaking out and I approached you to both reassure you that such a request was not unreasonable but also that is was not a big deal and the request should simply be respected. You continued to take her picture in this time and after a few minutes she approached you again and once again asked you to stop photographing her. You then pretended to stop and dropped your camera to groin level but a minute later I spotted you zooming in on her on the camera's viewscreen (you show this in the video you posted) and at that point I put my open hand in front of the camera lens to obstruct the camera's view.

You have obviously edited the video and presented it out of context but actually what I describe here is clear enough from your own video. It shows you zooming in on her and you can hear the exchange between us
'You were asked to stop filming her, your now doing it deliberately right, its not on, its not on mate'
'Get your hand off my camera'
"stop filming'
'get it off'
'stop filming'
'I'm not filming you, get out of my way' (this when your video actually shows me!)
' stop filming, I'm not an idiot'
You then proceeded to go on a rant about how you were the only Irish person at ODS etc and a load of other stuff that made it quite clear you were hostile to ODS and saw the people there as fools.

The woman you were making uncomfortable is a friend of mine and she has very good personal reasons for not wanting you to photograph her. But regardless of the fact we are friends in similar circumstances I would have acted to prevent you photographing any activist in a way that was making them feel uncomfortable, in particular when you had politely been asked to stop not once but twice. I photograph a lot of events myself and have on a couple of times been asked by individual activists not to photograph them. I have always respected such wishes as my reckoning is that if someone asks they have a good reason for asking and its not my business to know that reason.

Given that you know your attention was making the women concerned uncomfortable I think its quite sinister that you have published her name on your video, in particular as your only argument with her was that she asked you twice to stop photographing her (and that you think she is a 'not Irish').

by Rational Ecologist. Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:20

Being asked to stop filming/photographing someone is a perfectly reasonable request and should be complied with without hesitation. Save your energy for those you should be rightly confronting. I have met all the guys in Occupy Cork and they, for the most part, are a friendly, pleasant lot. It's too much to expect to like everyone but that does not mean one can't support them. Be constructive and be polite and respectful.

by Farah Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:52

Dear John: You are not a victim in this case, you are a perpetrator. No one assaulted you. There is not a conspiracy against you at ODS. We all support the people who work against corrupt and unjust systems - including myself and Andrew. I did not want you to film or take pictures of me, and I have the right to my privacy. I have the right to contribute to a General Assembly, and to do the work that I have been asked to do by the facilitation committee at ODS without being bullied and harassed (and photographed) by ANYONE. This is not complicated. I simply did not want you to film me, and you have proven through your posting of this video (including my name) WHY I felt uncomfortable with you filming me, because you are not a journalist. You are not a supporter of ODS. You are simply doing this for your own reasons. It is the same reason that I would allow a member of RTE to film me and take photos, and would not allow the Garda. You claim you are a sovereign citizen of Eire, but this sort of behavior is antithesis to the sovereignty of any individual and their citizenship rights. I am not a citizen of Ireland, and that is precisely why there are more implications upon my participation in protest than yourself. Surely, you can understand this? Surely, you can understand vulnerable people, wanting to speak out against injustice, but not wanting their participation to put them in harm's way. Any person who supports church victims will surely understand this sentiment. Stop confusing the issue John. If you were legitimately taking photos either to inform or support no one would have a problem with that. You obviously are not, however, following the basic ethics and job description of a journalist so I have every right to refuse to be photographed. Please take down that video immediately.

by socialistfeminist - none Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:43

Farah does have the right to not be filmed but come on how can attacking people be defended especially a group of abuse survivors? Farah has not even made a statement of support of that group which is surely a further insult to them.
The abuse survivors group should be supported by all ODS and all anti-establishments protest groups in the name of solidarity. It is just plain wrong to say john's group don't support ODS just because they were filming-of course they support ODS what the hell else were they doing there? and thier support gets met with a physical attack? that's shameful.

However Photo-Journalists really should not stick thier cameras in people's faces if we say No!  Why do you think there are so few women in Dail Eireann-yes women are that vain-we don't want to look fat in photos , also the flash can disturb some people especially epileptics. I feel that taking my photo without my permission is really pretty rude but it's done constantly at political meetings and protests. I really hope that ODS offer an apology to the the victim of the attack as it must be especially hurtful for that group-it does appear to be a misunderstanding on both sides-John doesn't understand that people do have the right to say no to being photograghed and farah and her supporters dont' understand that people do have the right to not be attacked even pesky photo-journalists.

by chris O' D - none Tue Nov 01, 2011 13:00

For christ sake no wonder this country is in a shit grow up..... we all want the same things. Stop making a mountain out of a molehill. I know someone who was filmed at the protest and his social welfare stopped on account of it all. Stop fighting among yourselves and work towards the bigger picture. My brother was a victim of church abuse, but I dont sympathise withyour abrasive paranoid attitude, when someone asks you to stop taking a picture of them then that should be enough, no means no.......

by Andrew Tue Nov 01, 2011 13:33

Just so it is not clear there was no 'assault' even in the most broad sense of the word. John never came into direct contact with me or anyone else. Again this is pretty obvious (by omission) from the video because seeing as he was recording throughout we can be pretty sure he would have included any 'assault' with the video.

I think he is using that term because its obvious that he would receive very little sympathy for complaining that someone had put their hand in front of his camera when he was trying to secretly video a young woman after she had asked him twice not to photograph her. But in terms of what was actually a very minor incident that was all that happened.

The other thing that should be clarified is that neither me nor the other man videoed has any formal role in ODS (apart in my case from doing a talk on activist journalism one evening previously). Neither of us were or have ever been part of the security team. So in so far as he has a disagreement it is directly with me and not with ODS or the woman he was secretly videoing.

by Wrong, wrong & wrong. Tue Nov 01, 2011 14:22

Andrew, either you or another person laid a hand on his property and that is trespass to the person. And by definition of ‘assault’ it is at its minimum an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent, harmful or offensive contact to them (get the picture now? He could get you with threat of harm so your ‘broad’ definition can go straight out the window). btw, havent u written and complained before about security guards touching ur camera equipment and complaining about it? It’s a case of pot calling kettle black here. ODS need to be more careful and assign some security with guidelines rather than just anyone running around not knowing what theyre doin. And I know that person who lost their social welfare, that’s a disgrace and a much more serious issue.

by Andrew Tue Nov 01, 2011 14:51

Ah sure I've been actually assaulted by security on more than one occasion which is why I'm calling bullshit here. This didn't involve some guy putting his hand in front of my camera but (for instance) involved two people knocking me to the ground on the second to last occasion. As I say above no physical contact was made so really unless the Garda were interested in this in terms of the 'fishing for intelliegance' level there is no question of anything coming out here except a lot of hot air and misdirection.

But the various me v security situations are also an entirely different context, one where from the start the security and me would have understood we were on opposite sides of the politics of such situations. I'd apply completely different moral rules to such photography then I would to a situations where fellow activists didn't wish to be photographed. (And its the political/moral question I'm interested in here rather than the legal ones).

I'm not at all inclined to fault ODS here both because they can't pre-plan for everything but also because in this case nothing much actually happened. There was very little to see never mind intervene in. I do think the GA should decide that if people don't want to be photographed that ODS would expect photographers to respect that once it was communicated to them (a right to 'opt out'). And where someone was obviously ignoring such objections security could stand between them and the person being harassed. But really that is one item on a long list in terms of trying to turn the camp into a 'Safe Space.' Dame Street, particularly late at night is a long way from that simply due to its location.

BTW the Bristol Occupy Safe Space policy is online at https://network23.org/occupybristol/safe-space-policy/ )

by Rational Ecologist. Tue Nov 01, 2011 15:35

All concerned should sit down and talk about this situation. Emotions can become inflamed and people(all) need to be sensitive and aware. Discussing this on this forum is counterproductive and its never helpful in conflict situations. Talk, and try to listen to the other person's point of view. The real culprits love this. Point the finger where it needs to be pointed. I am sure all concerned are largely in agreement on a huge amount. Quit the drama guys. Either look for a solution or move on. Too much to be done. End of days.

by Farah Tue Nov 01, 2011 16:39

This is not about 'drama' folks are creating or not. There is a video posted on a public forum claiming that one of the organizers at ODS (myself) and a friend of mine have intentionally blocked someone from taking pictures. Its important because another journalist came up after the incident to ask me if it was ok for journalists to cover whats happening at ODS. Its also important because John claims he will initiate a hunger strike from today in protest. And finally, the video with my name and photo are still up on youtube, which I have repeatedly asked to come down as it does not have my permission and if someone believes what this man is saying it could compromise my safety and the integrity of ODS. I am sad that ANY amount of time has been spent on this ridiculous situation myself, but am sorry I can't let go of the issue until John takes down the video. I am happy to discuss it with him if he agrees to take down the video, though I can't see what discussing it will do since this is not a complex issue. I dont want my photo taken full stop. I don't want this video to be posted up of me claiming that I dont support the work of honest journalists. I dont want my name slandered in a public forum. All that needs to happen is that John takes the video down.

by Finbar - Occupy Dame Street Tue Nov 01, 2011 17:22

I was the guy from the camp that spoke quite often and was on the negotiating team that went to speak to the enough campaign. It isn't shown in the video but i did highlight that one of the early ENOUGH speakers failed to mention the political elements of the Enough campaign when he was explaining it to the crowd. This was my first indication of something amiss. The next day ENOUGH were insensitive enough to arrive at the occupy march with a table to distribute leaflets and their banners. I had no problem naming this to the crowd before and after the march. I am very relieved that a number of our camp members blocked the proposal and this shows that the consensus process, on such issues, does and has worked. In relation to the process, as i have said in the film, the process was followed to the letter but it is clear that the process itself needs to be tied down further. It is all good learning however and we as a movement i believe are in fact stronger for last Friday night. The debate itself was riveting to watch, but the idea that it is happening in front of the central bank is even more amazing. Finbar.

by Josie - none Tue Nov 01, 2011 17:45

Hi, this is all confusing. Am I wrong in thinking that people are allowed to put up stalls? I've seen lots of pop up stalls at the central bank and in other places from animal rights to political parties etc. Is the occupation dictating that civil liberties be restricted even though the custom and practise has been for freedom of expression? Does the occupation own particular spaces and dictate who or what can't be done or said there? cos if it is I don't know how it's going to grow. It's a shame cos I really support this and have been following it on facebook all over the world.

by Serf Tue Nov 01, 2011 18:54

"..And finally, the video with my name and photo are still up on youtube, which I have repeatedly asked to come down as it does not have my permission.."

Ok then, Can someone post the video link so we can object to the video and help to have it taken down?

by The Lord God Almighty - Anti-Social Worker's Party Wed Nov 02, 2011 07:22

I'm not sure what happened and it's not my business. However, if you want to remove a video from Youtube because it violates your privacy then follow the steps in the link I am providing with this post. You don't need to keep asking the guy who put up the vid to take it down.

P.S. Well done to ODS for rejecting the advances of the destructive SWP.

by Donal Who Isn't A Dicto Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:00

Think we all remember the classic SWP leaflet when Joe Higgins and Clare Daly were imprisoned. 'FREE THE SOCIALISTS' it read, with 'JOIN THE SOCIALISTS' below, along with contact details for the SWP. It was characteristically opportunist. The way they behave would be laughable if it wasn't such a burden to the left here. Well done ODS.

by Left Dubliner Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:13

Well done ODS! Horrible and parasitic group of 'activists'. Never forget the damage they have done, the groups they have ruined etc never!

by Murphy - Not a member of any party, nor would I be Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:25

Good god this video is a complete disaster. One after another the parasites stand up and gush about the socialist workers party. I don't think its going to work anymore, you have burned too many bridges and destroyed too many campaigns. The people see the light, its over! The SWP/PBPA/IAWM/RTW/Enough campaign should just let them got on with real business instead of wasting their time. CONGRATS TO OCCUPY DAME ST

by Non-aligned Wed Nov 02, 2011 13:13

We all know the SWP's form, but sad to see leftists taking the side of reactionaries. By the way, was the Ballyhea group's link with Declan Ganley explained/debated before ODS co-operated with them? Or is it just socialists they have a problem with?

by FSB! Wed Nov 02, 2011 14:58

The allegation you make against the Ballyhea group is very serious - what is your evidence for this? Links?  As for people's antipathy to the SWP, this stems from their direct personal experience of the destructive antics and control-freakery of the SWP in the IAWM, the anti-capitalist movement of the last decade, the Anti-Bin Tax Campaign, Shell to Sea, etc.  BTW it appears that the SWP/Professors Before Proletarians Alliance have eschewed collective effort and are making solo runs all over the place in the current Anti-Household Tax Campaign - yes, some old dogs only learn the tricks that suit them, it appears.  Also, the SWooP are not the only socialists about the place, and better-behaved formations of the left are generally welcome at the Occupy camps.

by Non-aligned Wed Nov 02, 2011 15:25

Ganley was invited to address the Ballyhea group on the subject of the bondholders. I'm not suggesting he's bankrolling them or anything (no-one is bankrolling them), but it is a connection that really ought to have been brought up, don't you think? Lots of people attending the protest would want no truck with Ganley.

by FSB! Wed Nov 02, 2011 15:37

'Ganley was invited to address the Ballyhea group on the subject of the bondholders. I'm not suggesting he's bankrolling them or anything (no-one is bankrolling them), but it is a connection that really ought to have been brought up, don't you think? Lots of people attending the protest would want no truck with Ganley.'

Declan Ganley may be politically objectionable on many levels, but Nick Griffin he is not (as far as anybody knows).  Inviting a person to speak to a group is not necessarily endorsement of his/her politics.  And a group that are as 'wet behind the ears' as Ballyhea are politically are allowed to make a mistake or two in their learning process when it comes to people they extend invites to.  It really doesn't compare with the wilful manipulativeness and deceit of the SWP, who are no babes when it comes to their standing in left politics.  Not to mention the SWP's dalliance with Islamism on the basis of 'my enemy's enemy, etc.'.  Methinks you are clutching at straws...

by lefty Wed Nov 02, 2011 16:30

Whenever a movement gains traction, the efforts to trigger infighting start.  If it's not trying to set the swp off fighting with the sp then its bringing up declan ganley or whoever.  Basically don't fall for sectarian efforts to increase divisions. Its standard divide and conquer.  Our class enemies are laughing into their glasses of fine wine every time we proles go at each others throats. Lets have more intelligence for once.  Groups can co-operate on issues for more effectiveness without agreeing provided they join as individuals and don't bring flags or party banners etc. 

Comrades of occupy movements, many of you are new to protest so I'll say this to you, beware of agent provocateurs both in cyberspace and in meatspace. Causing trouble and infighting and derailing good decision making is their bread and butter and they don't want your movements to succeed. Capital and the state are well funded and organised and it doesn't take much to derail a vulnerable fledgling movement with an experienced operator on the inside.