A Great Day for the Irish...but not for Ireland's wildlife heritage.

by Nature lover Fri Mar 15, 2013 19:12

How long more will our politicians allow this cruelty to go on? It's an insult to the name of sport!

Picket at Irish airline office in New York (1991)

Hare being chased in water-logged Irish coursing field

What coursing clubs call "sport"

by ban blood sports Fri Mar 15, 2013 21:47

Thanks for everything you're doing ,Nature Lover, but please don’t despair , there are some good friends of the Irish hare even amongst the highest in the land ! One man who I feel will certainly be supporting the cause is our current Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence, Alan Shatter . Alan was president of the Irish Council against Blood Sports for a time and has a noble record in standing up for the rights of animals – particularly for the right of the gentle Irish hare. He lost the Fine Gael party whip for a year from 1993 to 1994 for voting in the Dáil in favour of a Bill to ban live hare coursing.

Other good people are out there as well - perhaps not as well known as Alan is – but still quietly doing there bit to bring this cruel “sport” to an end once and for all. . I take heart from the fact that Felix Quigley , for instance , has taken an unequivocal stand against this “sport” . Regular readers of this site will I’m sure be aware that Felix is a busy man who stands up for the rights of what he sees as the only democracy in the Middle East. See: http://www.jihadcapitalistcrisis.blogspot.com . But significantly he was moved enough last year to write a message supporting the protest against the vile 3-day “National Hare Coursing” event when it was being held in Clonmel . Although he was unable to attend the protest at Leinster House in person last September , I noted with pleasure Mr Quigley’s short but unequivocal comment, which was recorded on this very site :
“I am very busy and am not in a position to attend but I send you my full support. Thanks for keeping up the fight on this and do keep it up”

by W - (personal capacity) Fri Mar 15, 2013 22:28

is that you taking the piss again JoeMc? Very funny.

What a coincidence, both people you mentioned are known zionist apologists.

Please don't try to derail an animal rights thread with a veiled attack on zionism. It's a completely separate issue.

And whether or not you think animal rights are unimportant, many people think otherwise. And they have a right to post about it without being derailed by piss taking.

Stop taking the piss on their threads ok?

by A Point... Fri Mar 15, 2013 23:17

Politicians like Clare Daly, Patrick Nulty, Tommy Broughan, David Norris, Joe Higgins, Catherine Murphy, Avril Power...to name a few.

Anti hare coursing picket at Dail (includes Deputies Clare Daly and Joe Costello)

Anti bloodsports demo (includes Patrick Nulty TD)

Clare D opposes hare coursing...but spares a thought for the greyhounds too.

by ban blood sports Fri Mar 15, 2013 23:39

Thanks A Point. I feel that the poster “W - (personal capacity)” was scraping the barrel there with his/her ad hominem comments regarding Alan and Felix. The fact that both these friends of the Irish hare also happen to hold strong views on Islamic terrorism and how to deal with it should have no bearing on this issue .

by Felix Quigley - www.4international.me Sat Mar 16, 2013 08:50

My goodness i did not expect tp come up here, and thanks for thoughts.

yes this hare coursing has to be ended. these inoffensive animals, and all animals are inoffensive, are netted for this kind of barbarity.

And what an insult to the dogs too. The situation is totally artificial. I often think when I see the way dogs are mistreated that man should have left the wolf alone.

Man has to learn in a new socialist society to not intervene in the world of animals, except very carefully for their good.

man has a responsibility which arises because of accidents in the past, where man developed a large brain.

it is this responsibility to animals that can not be carried out by capitalism especially a capitalism in crisis.

Everything is connected to this. I am still trying to get my head around this pig farmer from Waterford barbarity...

I always read articles on this on Indymedia and send my support even though other differences separate us.

by W Sat Mar 16, 2013 09:18

Felix
"ban bloodsports" is a sock puppet just taking the piss. He's not interested in banning bloodsports, just pushing his agenda. He's contrasting your opinions on animal rights with other opinions to try and make you / shatter look foolish.

It's off topic, derailing thread, continuing issues (subtly) across multiple threads, playing the player etc etc.

He'll get the chop if he persists in this approach, regardless of what I think of zionism.

now back to topic. sorry for intrusion. Nice pics of protest BTW! :-) Good to know some politicians have a conscience that extends beyond just one species.

by Reality bites back Sat Mar 16, 2013 17:58

How do you get a Jew like Shatter to be head of an animal rights organisation that condems Halal and Kosher killing???Only in Ireland would you have such Chutzpath!

by ban blood sports Sat Mar 16, 2013 21:54

Thanks for your kind felicitations , but I somehow think your sensible words will be lost on the likes of “w” – do not cast your pearls of wisdom amongst such swine , my dear friend . Let me warn you that “w” is trying to trap you –just like the cruel hunter traps an innocent hare in his net. In the case of “w” , it is a carefully woven net of deceit, and you are the quarry .

I’ve been monitoring his subtle behaviour , pursuing his every twist and turn from thread to thread for quite some time ,and think that I can now say with confidence that “w” is in fact the same person posting here under the user-name “W - (personal capacity)” . His threat to put a muzzle on me in his last comment, must surely as you say connect to the deep threat to man himself brought about by the ongoing crisis of capitalism.

I believe you were correct as well , Felix , when you wrote that “w” - alias “W - (personal capacity)” comes from Waterford or some such place , but for goodness sake , do not try to get your head around his multiple personalities. Leave it to me Felix . I'll continue to keep a close eye out , and if he persists in his spamming of this site he’ll be in big trouble

by W Sun Mar 17, 2013 01:59

ok Joe

it was a witty interlude, and as always I appreciate all the little references, and your astute powers of observation, but can you now leave these folks to get back to discussing the topic at hand please?

thanks
W

by Felix Quigley - www.4international.me Sun Mar 17, 2013 08:03

It is a great article at the top, informative.

(To my friend above I ask who can follow the devious minds on Indymedia. Best just to go your own way and insist on speaking your mind. At least that tradition still partially exists in the Irish Left)

All kinds of political opinion will come around this issue of animal cruelty going right across the spectrum and I believe each should put forward their views. I am not for "all good people coming together" rather I want to know how each think they can solve this issue of animal cruelty.

The problem as I see it is that the species man is not the "equal" to animals, and because of a series of accidents we branched out, and developed a large brain.

Man is now in a position of power and responsibility.

I cannot imagine a socialist society without man taking responsibility for animals.

Every time man acts upon nature then he has to be very careful.

A good example is the plight of the dog. It was advantageous for man to befriend the wolf. With his larger brain he was acting from self interest and he was thinking ahead.

But man in most countries has totally betrayed that trust that the wolf placed in man.

Hare coursing (one small aspect of the whole) is demeaning to the Irish human.

The capitalist system has been quite unable to teach man what his place is in Nature.

I imagine the hare reached Ireland long before did Man.

Is it not then the height of arrogance to act thus!

I doubt if the Irish teachers have the guts to teach evolution as it should be taught, in a real and living way to the kids.

Just as one possible indication, do kids know at what date roughly that Man reached this island, and in comparision to the Hare, what is the comparision?

And if kids are sunk into ignorance then surely they will grow up showing such arrogance about their own species.

On the issue above let people say what they like about 4international. I support Jews because they were slaughtered by the Nazis. I will oppose all forms of Holocaust Denial.

I do not like to see lies being spread about anything.

If you want to discuss the issue of Jewish slaughter of animals, go ahead. This is a free world.

All I will say is that in a future socialist world there will be no slaughter. Man with his brain has the ability THROUGH SCIENCE to solve this question too.

by Michael Bradshaw - Hatred of Family Law courts association . Mon Mar 18, 2013 05:32

Alan Shatter is against Blood Sports ?

Alan Shatter in his capacity as Justice Minister would do this country, who run with the Hare & Hunt with the Hound, a power of good IF he cleaned up the Blood Sports he presides over in the so called Family Law Courts where blood sports are played out in secret 5 days per week , but of course , pardon the pun , he would not dare such a hair raising move as his minnows of legal eagles might starve to death .

by Felix Quigley - www.4international.me Mon Mar 18, 2013 08:16

This site looks interesting...a very interesting article:

"Irish hares are in serious decline owing to changed farming practices and patterns of land use, but their persecution for sport has also had a major impact. The Ulster Wildlife Trust has warned that hare hunting and coursing: "may prove to be the final straw for some of the more isolated populations." In an article on 23 May 2005, the Irish Independent placed the Irish hare alongside the corncrake and the marsh fritillary butterfly as species under severe threat in Ireland. In Northern Ireland a Special Protection Order was in force until 31 March 2008 banning the killing, taking, sale or purchase of Irish hares. Such protection will continue to be necessary until there is greater assurance about the stability and sustainability of the population."

It looks as if (to answer my original question) the Irish Hare is very ancient indeed and precedes man in Ireland by ages...as the article shows at the beginning...article is condensed but interesting. How many Irish children are taught this?

(http://www.hare-preservation-trust.co.uk/irish.html)

Reading throuigh it shows it is industrial farming that is the big threat. the cruelty issue is a sideshoot from that overall crisis.

Will not be saved without the socialist revolution...absolutely definitely and completely

by JoeMc Mon Mar 18, 2013 22:21

Zionists ,Felix Quigley and Alan Shatter , are both opponents of hare coursing and defenders of the “rights” of hares . Wageslave argues that pointing this out here is “off topic, derailing thread, continuing issues (subtly) across multiple threads, playing the player” . But the support of the extreme right-wing for the “rights” of hares is not a “completely separate” issue for this thread .

There is a photograph in the main article by “Ban Hare Coursing in Ireland” showing a 1992 picket of the New York St Patricks Day Parade . Another picture appears in the first comment in support of this article, posted by “nature lover” . It is of a 1991 New York picket held at the offices of an Irish airline on the “rights” of the Irish hare. The posters carried by the protesters at the airline show that the demonstration was called by an organization called the International Society for Animal Rights (ISAR). From what I can make out from the banner being held by the protesters at the St Patrick’s Day Parade , that was also am ISAR protest ..

What is the International Society for Animal Rights?

According to its promotional literature , ISAR has for a long time provided , “tactical and strategic legal advice to a wide range of animal rights/welfare organizations and their lawyers in cases involving the protection and advancement of animal rights.”

On its website ISAR quotes an article by Joyce Tyler Esq., as testimony to its advocacy work on behalf of animal rights :

“In The Birth of Animal Rights Law: The Role of Lawyers in the Animal Rights/Protection Movement from 1972-1987,Joyce Tischler, Esq., founder and president of Animal Legal Defense Fund, set out to “explore the roots of a large scale, organized
movement, which started in the early 1970s in the United States, spearheaded by attorneys and law students with the express purpose of filing lawsuits to protect animals and establish the concept of their legal rights, regardless of the species of the animals or the ownership interest of humans.”
In that article, Ms.Tischler graciously names as “the first animal rights lawyer” ISAR’s Chairman, Henry Mark Holzer, professor emeritus at Brooklyn Law School. She credits Professor Holzer, then a practicing attorney professionally associated with ISAR, with three accomplishments crucial to establishing the field of what today is known as “animal rightslaw”: (1) With ISAR, having brought the first federal and first state lawsuit to invoke the moral concept of “animal rights”; (2) With ISAR, having founded the Animal Rights Law Reporter, which became “the legal clearinghouse for animalRights law information”; and, (3)Again with ISAR, having organized the “First National Conference on Animal Rights Law”— an undertaking, in Ms. Tischler’s words, “[t]he significance of
which cannot be overstated. “
see: http://www.isaronline.citymax.com/f/Winter_2013.pdf

ISAR’s Henry Mark Holzer , referred to by Joyce Tischler, Esq., is an extreme right-wing, rabidly pro-Zionist New York lawyer and university professor who has long-standing connections to American military intelligence . If Wageslave objects to my use of the word “extreme”, he should check out Holzer’s website
This is from its introduction :

I received my B.A. degree from New York University, where I studied Russian and political science.
After graduation in 1954, I served in Korea with United States Army intelligence, holding top-secret security clearance, and was Chief Order of Battle Analyst (Chinese Communist Forces) at Eighth Army Headquarters in Seoul.
Following my military service, I earned my Juris Doctor degree at New York University School of Law. Since December 7, 1959, I have practiced constitutional and appellate law. (My clients have included owners of pre-legalized gold, veterans seeking medical benefits, Soviet dissidents and defectors, and the author Ayn Rand.)

In addition to my law practice, for over two decades (1972-1993) I was a full-time tenured professor of law at Brooklyn Law School, where I am now professor emeritus. My courses included Constitutional Law, First Amendment, National Security, and Appellate Advocacy.
I am the author of approximately three hundred articles, essays, and reviews, and frequently publish commentary on current legal/political issues and events in the print and electronic media. I am often asked to provided that commentary on, and be interviewed by, broadcast media.”
See: http://www.henrymarkholzer.com/introduction.html

Israel must now act to destroy the Iranian Nuclear Bomb making without any delay. This means that Israel must without any hesitation whatsoever declare war on the Iranian Islamofascist regime and must strike and strike hard at these bomb making facilities which the Mullahs are running.
Felix Quigley
….the rogue regime in Iran, controlled by anti-Semitic madmen, has publicly and repeatedly waved a potential nuclear sword, promising to annihilate the state of Israel. To that end, it has loosed its terrorist puppet, Hezbollah, to attack Israel militarily on the ground. To achieve its final solution for Israel, Iran has pressed forward with its nuclear weapons program.
Two options for Israel
Facing this threat, Israel has two choices.
It can wait until Iran escalates its attack on the Jewish state, at the low end of the spectrum through use of surrogates like Hezbollah operating from Lebanon, or at the high end, until Iran obtains and uses a nuclear weapon. And pray for the best.
Or Israel can reprise its 1981 pre-emptive strike on Iraq's Osirak nuclear facility, which indisputably set Saddam Hussein's weapons program back decades and may have eliminated it for all time.
Which choice is best for preservation of the Jewish state? ……….. ISAR’s Henry Mark Holzer

by wageslave Tue Mar 19, 2013 09:19

Joe, thank you for the interesting background on this guy. Noted. But it's a bit of a stretch to use the fact that one rather murky zionist lawyer happens to be a member of an American animal advocacy group, and Alan shatter / felix, as well as other opinions they may hold (and we may not), also think the hare is worth saving, to commandeer a thread from people who care about the rights and welfare of animals and want to end the rather barbaric practice of coursing in Ireland, as a soapbox for your (worthwhile) pet topic

Coursing....bad. Zionist attitudes towards Iran.....bad

So lets all continue to campaign to modify aspects of both of these mindsets. But not on the same thread ok?

And no doubt an occasional murky individual may exist in your own campaign too in amongst all the other principled and ethical ones. Unfortunately, many worthwhile campaigns often have "difficult" people in their ranks. But you can't easily pick and choose all the people who join a campaign can you?. At least not without also seriously limiting your group's size and relevance. My 2c.

I'll leave your post up because, whatever about their ordinary members, I do accept it's relevant that all advocacy groups, including animal rights ones, regularly question the veracity of their important high ranking / international officials or else they'll end up just like the likes of Amnasty international, as useful tools with the likes of US state department running them by proxy.
(However, other mods may disagree with this view.)

But if you want to criticise Alan shatter, that US lawyer, and Felix, and their "other interests", maybe do it on a thread discussing zionism.

Joe, I'm sure you too have other interests, when not campaigning for fair treatment of Iran. It would also be against our guidelines for zionists to attack you on a thread discussing those other interests.

Back on topic after this please!! ;-)

W.

by Felix Quigley - www.4international.me Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:14

The animals do not speak. They need all of our help.

by Felix Quigley - www.4international.me Fri Mar 22, 2013 08:42

If hare coursing in Ireland is banned then that will be a very good thing indeed. As my quote from the hare association group shows there is already in the ranks of these good people a deepening scientific understanding of the Irish Hare. They have explored the history of the Irish hare back to a time when the seas had retreated and what is now the Celtic Sea was once some kind of scrubland and hares there lived. Long periods of time went by and these resourceful animals developed their own genetic make-up. This scientific knowledge has led to the present thought, that this is a separate species. Their article thus makes the point that the Irish hare will not breed with the mountain Hare. 4International our small but growing organization are friends with such people. They are not only good, they are also intelligent and learned. They tend to promote learning. That can only be to the advantage of the working class people.

Remember that hares and all other animals are helpless against superior humans, and they cannot speak up for themselves. The Indymedia Management has correctly stood up to a Stalinist type attack which basically says unless you agree with the present “left” in Ireland then you must not be allowed to use your expertise to help animals. In this case the great crime was "Zionism"! This was totally outlandish. The person in question was using his great legal expertise to help the case of animals. And 4international wish him well in his efforts to help animals. This does not imply any agreement on political programme with the man. And moreover the Indymedia Management in the form of “Wageslave” has taken a stand, even a small stand at this stage, against this dreadful political sectarianism that characterises the present political groups on the left in Ireland. It is the same issue nearly exactly as Trotsky insisting on using the Czarist generals to help the workers in the Civil War against the Whites supported by Imperialisms. Should he? Of course he should.

I am at a loss to describe what we have experienced on this thread. 4International is running up against people on the net and very often they sign themselves with a “W”, and these “Ws” are laying down the law to humanity, in this case that a legal expert in America cannot work for the welfare of dogs. This legal expert is definitely not for socialism which is my foundation, but it is the height of sectarianism to say that he cannot do some and perhaps a lot of good for animals, who once again we repeat, are animals who cannot speak for themselves in this for them very dangerous world.

by wageslave Fri Mar 22, 2013 15:21

I've been lenient thus far, but you lot just take advantage of my soft heart so it's zero tolerance from now on for off topic posts on this thread. That goes for everyone.

wageslave

by Other issues aside... Thu Apr 18, 2013 09:49

I appreciate and respect the right of all to express a view in relation to this issue, but let's cut through the off topic stuff...people on all sides of the political spectrum, left, right, centre, far left, far right, whatever you like to term people with this or that political standpoint...oppose activities like hare coursing. Margaret Thatcher was anti-hare coursing. I personally don't condone her other views or policies but I'm with her on that. Then you get a politician of the polar opposite persuasion who also speaks out againt hare coursing. People are either pro or anti animal cruelty practises. Generally speaking, left wing folk are stronger on the issue, but you do get people on the right taking that stand too. In Britain, most Labour MPs are anti bloodsports..but about 20 or so Tory MPs share that stance. It is that small number of Tory MPs who are blocking Cameron's proposed repeal of the bloodsport ban introduced by the Labour government in 2004. Labour MPs, together with most Lim Dem MPs and those 20 or or so Torys, amount to a majority in the House of Commons opposed to reversing the ban. Personally I'd never back Tory policies, but I'm glad that a sufficient number of them are saying no to the return of hare coursing and foxhunting to Britain. We opponents of bloodsports are more concerned with making some progress in the campaign against these activities than about the possible sophisticated inner motives of some people who may or may not be opposing blood sports for some reason other than the cruelty to animals involved.

Maureen O' Sullivan TD, Bernie Wright, and Clare Daly TD at anti blood sports demo outside Dail