The Citizenship Referendum – The Government’s Proposals

national | rights, freedoms and repression | opinion/analysis

Tuesday June 08, 2004 20:36

by Margaret

How the Givernment plan to legislate on the citizenship issue "Once the Referendum is passed".

The Citizenship Referendum – The Government’s Proposals

The title of this post comes from a document available on the Dept. of Justice website. I hadn’t received the referendum booklet until last Friday and to try to find our exactly what the wording was and how significant the changes to the constitution were going to be, I went looking for something on www.justice.ie. The most relevant document I found was The Citizenship Referendum – The Government’s Proposals, which was on the main page at the time. It details the proposed changes to the constitution but also a proposed draft Irish Nationality and Citizenship (Amendment) Bill 2004. One of my main concerns about this referendum is passed is that the issue of citizenship will then be a matter of legislation, which ultimately seems to me to mean a numbers game in the Dail. The opposition can rant all they want but with Fianna Fail having a majority just about everything goes their way when it comes to putting things to votes. An example of the kind of thing the government would like to do is given in this document:

“Once the Referendum is passed, the Government will bring forward the Implementing Bill containing proposals on the lines set out in this document. It will be for the Dáil and Seanad to debate that Bill in the normal way before its enactment into law.

In broad terms, the draft Implementing Bill at Appendix 1 has the following features:
· A person born whether north or south to non-national parents, either of whom has been lawfully resident in the State for at least three out of the four years preceding the birth, will have an entitlement to Irish citizenship. (For non-EEA national parents, periods spent in the State for study purposes or while awaiting the determination of an asylum claim will not count. This is the same as for non-EEA applicants for naturalisation.)

…………………….. If a person born in Ireland to non-national parents does not come within any of these categories, then he or she will not have an entitlement to Irish citizenship.”

Maybe this isn’t much different than the naturalisation laws at present but I’m appalled that they would think of not allowing people waiting on asylum claims or students to have the same status as others. Not allowing asylum seekers to count their time spent here is pretty much what I’ve come to expect from Fianna Fail but what’s wrong with students? Surely someone who might come to do a degree, or a PhD even, and has a child with another foreign student after spending three years in Ireland should be allowed to claim citizenship for their child. Such students are contributing economically, socially, and in often in research and development terms to the country.

The government would have us believe that this referendum is an easily understood cut-and-dry issue. This is a only a proposed bill but it gives an idea of the sort of legislation that the government would like to put in place. Why haven’t they been telling us about their legislative plans “Once the referendum is passed”? (They could have at least used an “if”).
I would have liked more than a week to debate the issue and get my head around the implications for both the Yes and No vote but that seems to have been the point. If people don’t know what’s it’s all about, they might believe the Fianna Fail spin!

The document:
www.justice.ie and select Publications and then Select “Immigration, Asylum and Citizenship”

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Comments (12 of 12)

I'm up the spout by student Joe

by student Mary

Tue Jun 08, 2004 23:35

we both come from the Levant, the occupied territories of the Palestinian authoritiy to be precise.
Will our baby, we haven't a name yet but we're thinking about "jayzus" be able to leave Ireland, as we neither of us have citizenship rights in our country along with three million of our fellow nationals.

Now Mikey who is the pharasee?

Might I just add, that maybe I should have had an abortion.
Now Mikey who is the saducee?

Are we being obtuse? It would cost less than two months of a MEP's salary to bring a pregnant Palestinian to Ireland. You want to expel them thereafter?

Students

by Dee

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:28

The reason students' time in the country doesn't count is because if you travel to most countries on a student visa, your status is that of "non-resident".

I guess it's the same with asylum seekers, in that they are strictly not resident in the state until they have been regularised i.e. granted refugee status, but I'm not sure about this.

Basically between citizenship, nationality, residency, permission to remain, etc. there is a real choice of ways to discriminate against anyone new to a country.

Although I agree with you that the issue of the referendum should have been given more time for discussion, the government have been pretty clear from the time they proposed the referendum what they planned to do if it was passed. The fact that you only found out this week isn't really Michael McDowell's fault.

that may well be, but the Government has chosen as usual to blur European and National issues.

by knowing full well that it is never really anyone's fault

Wed Jun 09, 2004 17:49

Knowing full well that the voters do not tend to make discerning choices when presented with so many important decisions in such a short time.

Meanwhile, Mc Dowell has proposed a new fund for Asylum seekers in Europe.
Asylum law, is based on the Medieval common law concept of Sanctuary.
This is still held to be common law in most European countries, though France did legislate against it.

Of the 1600 people in the Cathedral, last weekend in Barcelona and the 250 others in the Church of the Pi, the majority were as is observed muslims, many from Pakistan, a country which is subject to many difficulties, and could arguably be a "political refugee" starting point.

Under the 14th (or is it 15th*) article of the Universal Human Rights declaration, no person may be refused asylum if they are genuinely at risk of persecution.
It is not clear whether the majority of Pakistani (and it must be said those of Afghanistani origin who have found Pakistani documentation) would qualify as such.
It is interesting that so many people from this very troubled corner of Asia, are choosing Spain in general and Barcelona in particular.
One might think that they would choose England or for that matter Ireland, sharing a common "post-imperial lingua franca". That increasing numbers are choosing to enter Spain suggests that asylum entry to the UK has effectively closed that "natural post imperial option" to these people.

Of the 1850 migrants who protested less than 20 were detained, and subsequently deported. And that's that.

* (i don't memorise universal declarations, I didn't go to that type of school )

pretty opaque

by F

Wed Jun 09, 2004 17:59

"the government have been pretty clear from the time they proposed the referendum what they planned to do if it was passed."

I heard that this is the first time people are being asked to vote on a referendum in which the details will be worked out later - if it gets passed.

This sounds dodgy and not "pretty clear" to me.

Also
The Referendum Commission were slow off the mark, getting info out to the public.

Who's fault is that?

The referendum stinks.

Wed Jun 09, 2004 18:18

**I heard that this is the first time people are being asked to vote on a referendum in which the details will be worked out later - if it gets passed.**

The details of the legislation will be worked out later, those of the referendum have be available since it was announced.

The legislative details have to be "worked out later", because until the constitution is changed via the referendum there can't be any legislation.

That's how these things normally work, although usually, and this time is no exception, the government will have proposed measures they intend to legislate for in the event that they can.

Lots of things stink about this referendum, but that's not one of them.

even worse

by lish

Wed Jun 09, 2004 18:42

not only does the proposal say that anyone born on the island whose parents are not entitled to citizenship are also not entitled to be irish citizens, naturalization can happen after 5 years of being legally resident, not including time spent applying for residency and worst of all:
naturalisation -the giving of citizenship, will be at the sole discretion of the minister and can be revoked by him/her at any time for a variety of reasons including not being faithful to the state.
this would put internationals entirely at the mercy of the minister for justice & make their citizenship precarious always.
this is incredible. in other eu countries after a period of residency people can apply for citizenship but i doubt if it comes from a minister or can be easily revoked. anyone know for sure?
this is even worse than what i imagined.
there will be no clear criteria for who can get citizenship if this is passed & no way of proving discrimination.
citizenship will be at the whim of bigoted right wing idealogues.
help get this info out.
now!

On No

Wed Jun 09, 2004 19:23

"The legislative details have to be "worked out later", because until the constitution is changed via the referendum there can't be any legislation."

This sounds like a lame excuse.

Why aren't these details available in advance?

In general, concerning the referendum process,
I'd be concerned that some of these legislative 'details' could give the govt. powers.
that were not forseen in more broadbased debates.

Dear "Up the Spout"

by Ask Mikey - Advice Columnists International

Wed Jun 09, 2004 19:40

Jayzus is a perfectly nice indigenous name to honour the birthplace of your offspring (I presume yez are at the book larnin' in Dublin?). But I think your condition is making you a little hysterical or you wouldn't contemplate the sin against God that is the genocide against babies.

Now, this hysteria also applies to your worries about residency in Ireland. It is quite obvious that you will be able to live here illegally and that your chances of being caught are fairly low -- after all that's been the pattern of illegal immigration everywhere else in the world. If you find a suitably corrupt Irish employer (shouldn't be too hard, actually I'm looking for a nanny meself) then you will be able to live out a long, unpleasant and inhumane life. Top o' the mornin' to ye!

Irish government has no choice

by Gaelle Bertrand

Thu Jun 10, 2004 03:43

The CIA has instructed all of it's puppet states to crack down on freedom of movement. First they crack down on immigrants, then the crack down on all Irish people.

Bertie and McDowell are powerless against the CIA interfrence, they could ruin the Irish economy in a matter of weeks.

Students and Residency

by UCD head

Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:39

I think that students should be classed as resident while they are here for study. So what if that then qualifies them to be citizens by naturalisation?! What do you think they are doing when they're here. They are not in some compound away from the rest of Irish society. They are living here and are playing an active role in Irish society. I think foreign students should have full residency!

What will happen next? New catagories of non-resident visas willl be created so that the GOvernment don't have to give citizenship through naturalisation. It may come to a situation where non EU citizens come here with "non resident visas". It's disgusting!

VOTE NO

Changes to Irish citizenship rights from today

by eeekkkk

Sat Jan 01, 2005 14:09

07:44 Saturday January 1st 2005

Changes in the Irish citizenship law, resulting from last June's referendum, are to be implemented from today.
The changes affect children born in Ireland on or after January 1st to parents who are not Irish citizens.

They will not be entitled to citizenship unless one of the parents has been officially resident in Ireland for at least three years preceding the child's birth.

RTE??

by Darth

Sat Jan 01, 2005 14:52

just think

this time next year we may be back to the old tradition of reporting on the first child born of the new year without opening a running sore.

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The Citizenship Referendum – The Government’s Proposals

Comments (12 of 12)