Large Scale Deportation in Progress / RAR call Protest for Wednesday at 12.30pm at GNIB Burgh Quay

by Davy Carlin - Chairperson Anti Racism Network of Northern Ireland Mon Mar 14, 2005 20:50 carlindavid at hotmail dot com 0777 405 32223

All out in support and solidarity!
Dear friends,

The Anti Racism Network of Northern Ireland is getting information of possible large scale deportations by the Southern government
The Anti Racism Network of Northern Ireland have been made aware of the possible large scale deportations by the Southern government.

We believe that the Southern Government is making a huge mistake if they believe that they can carry this through without a stand.

As Chair of the Anti Racism Network in Northern Ireland I urge all who are opposed -to lend whatever support and solidarity to this issue - with the greatest of urgency.

I shall be circulating our supporters across the 'political divide' in the North - as well as contacting our International supporters and local and International media.

In the meantime can people contact - Mark 00353677974622( Mark). and Rosanna in the South -..00353876662060 - for details and to offer solidarity.

I with others am arranging to go down in the morning.

Friends don't let them get away with this without a stand. Davy Carlin

by Dejected Mon Mar 14, 2005 21:53

Indeed there were deportations today. I work at a news organisation in Dublin, where today a reporter colleague heard the news and began phoning Nigerian asylum-seekers he knows. Those who answered their phones were either in the back of Garda vans or at Dublin Airport. Some were too upset to speak.
Meanwhile there was no mention of it on RTE radio one bulletins: spirit them out of the country but don't tell the country.
It seems the gardai picked them up in ones and twos and families around the country simultaneously.

by eeekkkkk Mon Mar 14, 2005 21:59

The prick at independent network news i spoke to wouldn't listen to me - he said he had to confirm the truth of the story with the gardai before he would listen to anything - he hasn't called me back. I wonder what the gardai are saying to journalists?

Nothing on RTE website as of now. They know this is happening. If it's not on the 9pm news they may as well be colluders in this sorry scene.

by Jon Glackin - Street Seen Mon Mar 14, 2005 22:00 streetseen at hotmail dot co dot uk

There will be a solidarity picket in Belfast on Wednesday at 1pm to co-incide with protest at the same time to be held in Dublin @ Burgh Quays...Details will be announced here asap....
Lets show our opposition to Deportations North and South!

by Alan MacSimoin Mon Mar 14, 2005 22:01

This evening Residents Against Racism decided to call a ptotest for Wednesday (16th) at 1pm outside the Garda National Immigration Bureau on Burgh Quay.

(Burgh Quay is the street between Tara Street DART station and O'Connell bridge on the south side of the river).

Just to give a flavour of what's going on, here is what one friend who was there today reported:

"Among those to be deported is a 19 year old who has been here for 5 years and is to sit his Leaving Cert in June. He has no family alive. His solicitor was with him so we were a bit optimistic but as we were leaving the guy was lifted and taken home to pack his luggage for deportation."

by . Mon Mar 14, 2005 22:09

:-(

by emma - rar Mon Mar 14, 2005 23:50

Hi all,
I was at the gnib today and there is a definite mass deportation tonight, eight or so people were taking out of the back and we assume to clover hill or the holding centre in finglas, usually people collect their letter and are given a date to report back but today everybody was taken up stairs, earlier everyone from rar and others that came along for support were asked to piss off for given out information, i was only one left that wasn't so stayed in to see what was happening and on a number of times was asked what was my business here, so i got an application form and ticket on pretence that i was not irish[seriously stupid in there]one woman i was talking to had a sick husband in hospital so obviously he couldnt collect his letter,she had letter from a doctor and they refused to give her another date to report back, and insisted her husband come down.
Another guy only 19 came to report today he has been here 5 years and is to sit his leaving in june, he has no family alive and he was to be deported today his solicitor was with him so we were a bit optimistic but as we were leaving the guy was lifted and taken home to pack his luggage for deportation, another thing apparently a hostel somewhere out near dun laoighre well everyone was given a deportation order how true that is i dont know.

On wednesday rar are having a protest outside the gnib at 1 o clock so if anyone can get along come and let others know too.

Emma

by Rasta4i's Tue Mar 15, 2005 02:08

1 VIDEO

http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/mr1405web_auschwitz_in_irel.wmv

Residents Against Racism
14 March 05


The objectives of Residents Against Racism are primarily, to support and defend victims of racist harassment from the state. Secondly, it is to fight against all forms of racism, and to state that asylum-seekers and refugees are welcome in Ireland. We are a democratically-organised voluntary group, are not aligned to any political party or organisation, and have members/supporters all over Ireland. Approximately 50% of members who attend meetings are refugees, asylum-seekers or from ethic minority communities.

-=-=-=-=-=-=
This is Auschwitz we are living in, right here in Ireland, right now.

Rasta4i’s

by Phuq Hedd Tue Mar 15, 2005 06:06

I wonder how secure Tom Brady feels living in a country that deports people to a country that has Sharia Law, that allows US murder forces to use our airports?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
50 asylum seekers deported on special flight

ALMOST 50 failed asylum seekers were deported to Nigeria early this morning on a chartered jet.

The group was accompanied by detectives from the Garda National Immigration Bureau on the flight from Dublin to Lagos.

This means that the number of deportations has jumped from 30 at the end of 2000 to more than 2,600 at present, with a further 2,500 deciding to return home voluntarily.

The deportation figures are set to rise significantly this year with greater use of jets chartered jointly by the Irish and other governments.

The flight followed deportation orders being sent across the country to asylum applicants from Nigeria who had exhausted the appeals process.

Nigeria is one of five countries which has been prioritised by the Government for fast-tracking of applications because of the high number of claims which have been rejected by the authorities.

Tom Brady
Security Editor

by Davy Carlin Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:54

I have been on to a number of organisations that operate North and South and pased the details on.

Mark - Rosanna SSN will be in touch later re picket. We should try and get others organised else where around the 32 counties.

Good that we are moving quickly given the intensification of the deportations

Be in touch. D

by padraic Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:41

that video wouldn't work for me with media player or the div-x player, anyone else have problems?

by Yo the Bro Tue Mar 15, 2005 15:04

but I had to try several times to get it. 'RIght click it and save target as'. Nice Short Video.

by redjade Tue Mar 15, 2005 15:27

Press Release
13 March 2005

Bishops Launch Awareness Campaign For Undocumented Irish In USA
http://www.catholiccommunications.ie/Pressrel/13-march-2005.html

To coincide with St Patrick’s Day, the Irish Bishops’ Conference launches its “Supporting Irish Abroad” (SIA) campaign for 2005 next week. This year, the Bishops’ Commission for Emigrants highlights the plight of the undocumented Irish living in the United States and the difficulties that they face in regularizing their status.

by redjade Tue Mar 15, 2005 15:32

Thursday, March 3, 2005

New hope for illegal Irish in United States – Allen

- Proposed US legislation may offer Irish in legal limbo a fresh start in the US
- Government must do all it can to assist US administration in introducing reforms

Bernard Allen TD, Fine Gael Foreign Affairs Spokesperson has today (Thursday) described new US proposals to introduce legislation, designed to allow illegal Irish living in the US the option to pay a fine and apply for legal status, as a ray of hope for many Irish people and their families.

“The proposed legislation in the United States which, if enacted, would enable Irish people living illegally in the US to regularise their situation is a very welcome development, and gives new hope to Irish people currently living illegally there.

by redjade Tue Mar 15, 2005 15:44

Not long ago, we were one of the European Union's poorer member states.  Now we are one of the richest.

We were a country of dole queues.  Now we are close to full employment.

We were a country of emigrants.  Now, as our population rises to levels not seen in over a century, we are witnessing major net immigration.

by pip Tue Mar 15, 2005 15:56

I beleive McDowell is in Buenos Aires for the annual government Paddy's day knees up.

by counterharrier Tue Mar 15, 2005 16:30

The GNIB, the "Garda National Immigration Bureau" are not morally in a position to decide who should or should not stay in this country. The Gardai are traitors to this country and are in the hands of the British intelligence services.
See story:

by Duine Tue Mar 15, 2005 16:45

Cá bhfuil an tuairisc ar an suíomh seo i leith géarleanúint sa Nígéar?

by Jon Glackin - Street Seen Tue Mar 15, 2005 17:10 streetseen at hotmail dot co dot uk 0774 327 5533

Cead Mile Failte..
Who are they fooling?

There will be a solidarity picket in opposition to the Mass Deportations on Wednesday @ 1 p.m.. Belfast

Irish Tourist Board
Castle Street
Weds @ 1p.m

Please Bring Placards and noise!!!

Speakers: Mick O'Reilly ATGWU
Davy Carlin ARN
Jon Glackin Street Seen

Supported by Street Seen/ Residents Against Racism..

Please spread the word....

by Duine Tue Mar 15, 2005 17:14

An turasóirí nó lucht iarrtha tearmainn atá siad a chur thar teorainn amach?

by Rasta Tue Mar 15, 2005 17:47

Download the latest drivers if you cant view the vid. only takes 2 minuts. i cant look after everyones computers too.

by IRL Timez Tue Mar 15, 2005 18:02

Irish Times (Pay for sebscriotn required)
15-03-05

Thirty-five Nigerian nationals have been deported from the State on a chartered aircraft, the Garda has confirmed.

The flight left from Dublin at 11.40pm last night. A Garda spokesman said 16 men, 10 women and nine children were on the flight chartered by the Garda National Immigration Bureau (GNIB).

Reports today indicated that up to 80 Nigerian people were due to be deported.

It is understood that some of those deported are "aged-out" minors who initially arrived in Ireland unaccompanied by adults. They have now turned 18 and are no longer in the care of the Health Service Executive.

Immigrant support groups have expressed anger at the move, claiming a lack of transparency in how decisions are made on people's applications for leave to remain here on humanitarian grounds.

Irish Refugee Council chief executive Peter O'Mahony has written to the Tánaiste to express such concerns, and he described as "very troubling" the apparent inconsistencies in the criteria applied by the State in deciding who should qualify to stay in Ireland.

The Dún Laoghaire Refugee Support Group claimed that a woman whose baby died here last year was to be among those deported.

by Confused - University College Dublin Tue Mar 15, 2005 23:34

I'm a student in UCD and this thread is replicated on our newswire at ucdsu.net...I was thinking of coming along to the protest tomorrow but then people started commenting and saying that RAR has links to the violent AFA?

Is this bullshit or what?

Don't attack me, I'm just a bit confused about it...can anyone clear this up once and for all?

by R. Isible Wed Mar 16, 2005 00:03

But I suggest that you don't let a rumour stand in the way of the much more important objective which is to protest these Gestapo-like sweeps of asylum seekers. You might contact RAR yourself and find out the information instead of effectively propagating it here.

by Confused - UCD Wed Mar 16, 2005 00:24

I don't know how to contact RAR, this was the first I'd heard of them.

Anyway, I intend on going to the protest tomorrow..it seems to have been scaremongering and you're right, it's more important that we make a stand against the horrific deportations seen on Monday than be scared away by any unfounded claims like the ones I've been hearing.

Sorry if I caused any offence by asking.

by UCD student Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:14

I think you should take a look at the people spreading that in UCD. Take a look at the other lies they spread. One fella in particular is perhaps the biggest supplier of bull$@#t in Ireland. He went around telling people he was defending people in the high court. Most people now see through his crap, don't be one who doesn't.

by Davy Carlin Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:21

Go along and lend solidarity to the issue - while there I am sure some - one from RAR will speak to you.

Dear friends, {Circulated}

Sorry about the very late notice.

A Picket is being called tomorrow {Wednesday} as a matter of great urgency at the Failte {Welcome Ireland} Ireland tourist board at 1pm in Castle Street - Belfast

We urge people to attend

Speakers

Mick- O Reilly President ATGWU
Davy Carlin Chairperson of the Anti Racism Network
Joh Glackin - Co ordinator Street Seen

The reason is below.

Reports coming in – ‘They came in the dead of the night.’


Large scale deportations are and have been taken place across the South of Ireland.



Two women from Athlone with a child each in their care are presently being brought to Dublin Airport. Some of their kids are not with them.



Women from Mill Street, a resident here for four and a half years who is sick and disabled (she was taken ill at Burgh Quay last week) with two daughters in school here- one in primary and one in secondary are in custody en route to Dublin airport.



A woman from Castleblaney with 2 kids, eldest a boy of 15 -whose school have been campaigning and trying to keep them - she and some of her kids have been picked up.



Two families from Athlone who have some kids with them have been picked up - they also had a lot of support locally - to the extent that a government minister went to the minister for justice about their case.

Urgent - more people are being picked up from all over country.


Residents Against Racism have called a protest fo12.30pm on Wednesday March 16th at the Garda National Immigration Bureau on Burgh Quay. (Burgh Quay is the street between Tara Street DART station and O'Connell Bridge on the south side of the river)

People can in the meantime can people contact - Mark 00353677974622. and Rosanna in the South -.00353876662060 -

The picket in Belfast is being held in solidarity with this protest -but more important to stand against these large scale deportations.

Hope to see you there, Mick O Reilly, Davy Carlin and Joh Glackin.

by uyi Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:22

Nigeria takes in far more refugees and asylum seekers than your pathetic country ever could. Read about what we did for people in Ivory Coast, Liberia and Sierra Leone. Why don't you keep your nose out of our business? If you don't like Sharia Law then don't have it in Ireland. Nigeria isn't Ireland.

by Devil Dog Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:30

to see the usual levels of hysterical hyberbole...get real people...how anyone can compare this operation to Auschwitz or the GS to Gestapo is beyond me...these people were in all likelihood chancing their arms and they've been sussed and are being sent home...I don't think they'll be whisked off to a gas chamber on arrival, do you?

by Gilbert Jeannon Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:48

There is no such thing as illegal immigrants, just illegal governments..!

An open question for UNISON and ICTU management, why has no one reacted to this policy of deportation ?

Is it because the idea of a few Black people being "forced" onto a plane is palatable ?

Or is it that there is always an excuse: resources, lack of time or lack of will not to confront .

Racism where ever it appears...

by redjade Wed Mar 16, 2005 14:47

John Scott, the choreographer of 'Fall & Recover' which played recently at Dublin's Project theatre, speaks to RTÉ's Morning Ireland Radio1 show about how one of his dancers, Ezekiel, was nearly sent back to his torturers....

RTÉ's Morning Ireland Monday 14 March:
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/rte-morningireland-deport.mp3

Also see:
Sebastiao Kalamandua Dances While He Waits for Deportation Order
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=68922

----- -----

'FALL & RECOVER'
8 MAR - 12 MAR
Choreography by John Scott
Music composed and performed by Rossa O'Snodaigh
http://project.ie/cgi-bin/eventdetail.pl?id=300

''An exciting dance performance emerging from John Scott's workshops with survivors of torture, clients of the Centre for the Care of Survivors of Torture (CCST), exploring and expressing their dignity and determination. The dance and movement celebrate the power of the human spirit to strike out a new life in a new land in the face of trauma, uncertainty and confusion.''

by Davy Carlin Wed Mar 16, 2005 15:44

Dear friends the solidarity picket organised by Street Seen was attended by 20 people over the course of half an hour. This was only organised at very very short notice - late yesterday - with the picket at lunchtime today.

So we thank all we took time to attend.

Representatives of no less that a dozen organisations attended as did all the main newspapers {Unionist and Nationalist} in the North to cover it.

Those representative’s included.

Street Seen, Anti Racism Network, Tools for Solidarity, Organise Ireland., Green Action, SWP, The Multi Cultural Resource Centre, Padraigin Drinan’s Solicitors office, The Children’s Commissioner of Northern Ireland, Save the Children, The Children’s Law centre, Trocaire.

Thank you all who took time out at very late notice for this important initiative.

by Reality Check Wed Mar 16, 2005 16:15

"There is no such thing as illegal immigrants, just illegal governments..!"

Explain this please. What does it mean? We have completely open elections in this country. You may object to the parties that then form the government but you are free to stand for election if you feel you could do a better job.

On the subject of deportations? What exactly is the alternative? All asylum seekers are given a hearing, an appeal. If this fails, they then have recourse to the courts. If that fails, they can like that notorious "victim" of Sharia Law - Kate Bamidele - just leave the country and travel to Britain.

by Davy Carlin Wed Mar 16, 2005 16:28

Not to leave anyone out -

Another ten or so people had arrived and attended - a bit later on - from several more organisations

Again many thanks. D

by DR Wed Mar 16, 2005 17:52

The 19 year old who was deported is a family friend of mine and we are all utterly disgusted that this has happened to him..... he has made contact with us and he is extremly upset he has no one in nigeria to help him, all of his school teachers and friends are now trying to sort something out for him. Surely there is a better way, this poor lad had everying going for him here in ireland and was a very popular person, he had intergrated into our community. We are all just soo upset. Any advice on getting him back would be greatly appricated.

by jeff Wed Mar 16, 2005 18:01

you wrote

'...I don't think they'll be whisked off to a gas chamber on arrival, do you?'

They can't afford gas chambers in these countries, so they'll probably be shot.

Don't worry, though, this is a liberal democracy. Everything is fair, above board, legal, and perfectly great! It has to be.

Make sure you believe everything the Garda Press Office tells you. Also, make sure you take everything McGhoul tells you to be infallible rethoric inspired by God.

by Devil Dog Wed Mar 16, 2005 18:18

Make sure you believe every spurious claim by bogus asylum seekers.

by KF Wed Mar 16, 2005 18:55

There's no such thing as a "bogus asylum seeker". If you're looking for asylum (for whatever reason), you're an asylum seeker. Even if you get your claim rejected (and let's not forget that Jack Straw rejected a claim by an Iraqi asylum seeker in 2001 on the grounds that Saddam's justice system would give him a fair trial! being rejected is no proof that you're not genuinely in need), you're still seeking asylum. Hence, still an asylum seeker.

Calling them "bogus" is just spouting tabloid rhetoric. You have no way of knowing whether their claims are true or not, and assuming from the outset that they are false just demonstrates prejudice of the worst kind.

I passed through Leeson Park today and saw a huge crowd of over 100 Nigerians outside the Nigerian embassy. I wondered what was going on, now I know... what the hell is wrong with this country?

by NTR Wed Mar 16, 2005 19:01

Some people, it would appear, cannot differentiate between sending someone home and gassing them to death, incinerating the corpse and heaping the remains into mass graves.

Make a lonely song and dance about deportations by all means, but PLEASE, show some pretence of intelligence and humanity by NOT trivialising organised mass murder and genocide.

by Devil Dog Wed Mar 16, 2005 19:04

You have no way of knowing that they aren't chancing their arm...automatically assuming they are all genuinely seeking asylum from some form of persecution only shows naïveté of the worst kind.

I think the punters ouside the embassy were complaining that they were being charged a small fortune for their passport applications which hadn't been processed...at least that's what a bunch of them were doing a few weeks back.

by R. Isible Wed Mar 16, 2005 21:18

QUOTE: get real people...how anyone can compare [...] the GS to Gestapo is beyond me

The situation reminds me very powerfully of some of the aspects of the round of the Jews by the Gestapo. A distinct minority, despised and reviled by many simply for being of a different ethnic or religious background are targetted as being "undesirable". They are slandered as a group with racial insults and generalizations. All the same they try to "pass" in their society, working and studying, keeping their heads down and trying to fit in.

All the time they are subject to arbitrary and uncertain seizure and forcible detention and deportation. They have to turn up regularly to sign to verify their presence and address. (Ah I remember how we students used to complain about the German WohnungsKarte (or whatever it was) when we worked in Germany in the summers. Can still see the NAZI in them we'd joke! Can you /ever/ imagine Irish people doing that?!).

They exist on sufferance.

The people with the admirable job of grabbing them and their children and forcibly shoving them onto planes (anyone remember the Gardai beating the Kurdish refugees back onto the Aeroflot flight in Shannon back when Saddam was still our friend?) are a Special force of the police with all sorts of powers.

I don't know though, you may be right, they may be more similar to the Vichy police force or one of the other collaborationist foreign governments that were so effective in rounding up the Jews and turning them over to their "home" government. Yes, I think that's a better parallel. Gardai working hand in glove with Ken Saro Wiwa's executioners. Nice.

Thanks.

by NTR Wed Mar 16, 2005 21:55

And others, it would appear, cannot distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. Gardai, Civil Servants and the Gestapo, ethnic cleansing and immigration control, deportation notices and seizure, isolated incidences and common occuring events, past tense and present tense, etc.

by Davy Carlin Thu Mar 17, 2005 15:33

If you pick up a copy of today’s Daily Ireland there is a good article about all the protests in Dublin, Belfast and Amsterdam

. Also in today’s Newsletter there is a classic picture of the Belfast protest – we look like the ‘heavy squads’.

by redjade Thu Mar 17, 2005 16:08

Anger at new round of deportations

The deportation of 35 Nigerians from Ireland back to their native country yesterday has sparked outrage.

The Irish Refugee Council are among those who have expressed concern about the deportation of the group which included a number of individuals who had entered Ireland as unaccompanied minors.

Protests will take place in Dublin and Belfast today in opposition to the deportations. Residents Against Racism have called a protest for 1pm at the Garda National Immigration Bureau on Burgh Quay in Dublin and a picket is being organised today at the Fáilte Ireland tourist board offices at 1pm in Castle Street, Belfast.

Speakers at the Belfast protest will include Mick O’Reilly, President of the ATGWU, Davy Carlin, Chairperson of the Anti Racism Network, and John Glackin, Editor of Street Seen.

The asylum-seekers from the west African country were arrested and flown to Lagos on a specially-chartered flight from Dublin following the rejection of their applications for refugee status.

http://tinyurl.com/4r5nx

by News from the past Thu Mar 17, 2005 19:28

Today, 17th March, AD 400 a small group of demonstrators from a group calling themselves Celts Against Racism (CAR) rallied outside the Offices of the Ard Rí calling for the release of Patrick of Wales. Patrick is due to be deported tonight, the Office of the Rí said, citing his alleged 'bogus' status as asylum seeker. "He has leeched off the good people of Ireland for many years now, like a tick on a greyhound" an official said. "His deportation is in full compliance with the law", he continued.

When asked about the possibility that Patrick would be tortured, perhaps murdered, upon his return, the official said "Once he's out of the country, he is no longer our problem." However, there is one way he can remain in Ireland the official said, and that is "if he goes back to being a slave, and works in the jacks of one of our fine tourist pubs."

Lá Fheile Pádraig everyone!

by eeekkk Thu Mar 17, 2005 21:10

is pretty much the RAR line

they still got deported however and all the fine words in christendom don't change that

how do you stop a plane?

Not so easy

blocking big roads is easier

sick country

government response to unpopularity at the polls when their false opinion pills don't demoralise the opposition (of various shades)

stir up racist support with some midnight deportations

then everyone will love them

sick (and very greedy and corrupt) fucks

by NTR Thu Mar 17, 2005 22:20

eeekkk,

Passionate post!

Of course, hysteria aside, the current rate of Nigerian deportations is such that it would take literally decades to remove those thousands subject to deportation orders, so lets not forget which side is winning.

Would you be prepared to think outside the box for 60 seconds and answer a question?

The recent removals just about keep the multi-million devouring, asylum processing system alive.

Without deportations, would you agree, the point in processing claims at all, collapses?

Do you think, as I do, that the asylum system should be completely scrapped if the outcome is still the same (ie little or no deportations) and Ireland formally withdraw from the 1951 convention?

by redjade Fri Mar 18, 2005 16:27

feel free to correct me if I am wrong but Ireland is signed to the 1951 Convention as ALL EU states have and have obligations to it as both individual states and as part of the EU.

Meaning: if NTR gets his way, Ireland could be expelled from the EU by withdrawing.

NTR's may wish to do the George W thing and withdraw from treaties and conventions on a whim, but would be other implications to such actions.

by NTR Fri Mar 18, 2005 19:27

Redjade,

With respect,

Ireland ratified the 1951 convention in 1957 - some years before Europe (1973).

Perhaps, you are thinking of the Schengen Agreement on cross-border security matters signed in 1985 (of which, the UK and Ireland are not signatories)?

I would argue a withdrawal based on the actual aims of the Treaty.

It followed two world wars and culminated in the establishment of the United Nations with the aim of saving succeeding generations from the “scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind” (Wilkinson 2000: 6). (see link below)

Fine by me.

However, I would seek a withdrawal based on the contemporary reality of rampant abuse and the tragic fact that this instrument now underpins a global explosion in people trafficking, sex slavery, international crime, drug running etc. and the non-application of the first safe country principle.

Any humanitarian process that rewards abuse and encourages the growth of criminality and indeed, persecution, is terminally ill.

by Peter Cosgrave Fri Mar 18, 2005 19:27

NTR's call for the withdrawl from the 1951 Geneva convention is Immigrant Control Platform policy. More than likely anything NTR would say is ICP policy. ICP are pretty extreme racists. The poisoned dwarf leader of the ICP seems to be making more and more irrational statements. I had the misfortune to see her at a debate in college. I hadn't heard of her before, i was shocked at her racism. Everything she said she could not back up when questioned, she relied on unsubstantiated allegations to try and pull the wool over everyone's eyes. They generally ran like "a members of ours heard this..". She wasn't fooling anybody and just made herself look stupid.

by NTR Fri Mar 18, 2005 19:51

Dear Peter,

Thank you for the well considered response.

Within 60 seconds!

You remind me of someone that used to post here with similar reaction times and bizzare theories completely unrelated to the debate.

Fond memories.

This debate is not about me.

Chew on that for a little while "Peter".

And try not get indigestion this time.

by jack white Fri Mar 18, 2005 20:42

"This debate is not about me."

well for some people it is, personally i see arguments about withdrawing from the 1951 Geneva convention as a pretty poor front for anti-immigration racism. You too remind me of someone who used to post here, they lost the head and started attacking the site for a brief while.... why return, couldn't stay away?

by NTR Fri Mar 18, 2005 21:00

Thank you Jack.

If you wish to address any point I make here, please feel free to do so.

Otherwise, please feel free to start a new thread.

On topic, with dignity, courtesy and strictly to the points, only, please.

by jack white Fri Mar 18, 2005 21:10

You raised the point of the Geneva Convention NTR. You said that you think Ireland should withdraw from it. I said that I see such arguments as a poor cover for rascism.
Follow that much?

by NTR Fri Mar 18, 2005 21:45

And If I were to ask an equally asinine question, I might respond as such:

Are those who support the 1951 convention, members/supporters of AFA and/or open border fanatics?

On topic,

If it's in you,

Is it your contention that the 1951 Convention is working, in practice, just as its founders wished for or not?

by NTR Fri Mar 18, 2005 23:26

Sorry Padraic,

I want to make that question multi-part.

Is it your contention that the 1951 Convention is working, in practice, just as its founders wished for or not?

Should Ireland apply the provisions of the 1951 Convention as they are laid out or not?

by eeekkkk Fri Mar 18, 2005 23:38

.

by Davy Carlin Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:48

There are good reports in today's Irish News.

One is on the issue of the estate agency 'Homefinders' discriminating against Ethnic Minorities - with them now being forced to review their practice.

This came via pressure from the ARN via differing avenues and tactics.

Sara Boyce of the ARN is interviewed today in relation to this.

Also in the Irish News Rosanna Flynn of RAR in a different article is interviewed in relation to the possible deportation of Akiem Majola.

by jack white Sat Mar 19, 2005 13:15

I can’t answer for AFA but I imagine that those who support the idea of open borders see it as going beyond the Geneva convention, I know I do. Honestly, I don’t know what the founders of the Geneva convention wanted so I can’t tell you how they would view the way it works today.
Personally I think that people should have the freedom to travel and settle wherever they want internationally and this is why I oppose deportations in Ireland, not because of any kind of allegiance to international law.
Now, since you're happy to talk about the geneva Convention how about telling us why you oppose it, alongside into Ireland?

by NTR Sat Mar 19, 2005 14:29

For openers "Jack", I have no comments to make on the Geneva Convention.

I refer to the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees. Not the same thing - ok?

I think the rest of your post is taken up with some utopian vision of what you would like to see, yet you suggest no route to getting there (except opposing deportations).

I don't want to get too deep into that fantasy because that is all it is.

No comment.

Davy, you are clearly having a whale of a time here. Any sign of you making a move on the imprisonment of asylum seekers in Northern Ireland, knocking out a few march's etc. or are you happier "down South"?

by Jon Glackin - Street Seen Sun Mar 20, 2005 18:52 streetseen at hotmail dot co dot uk 0774 327 5533

Stop The Deportations


Wednesday 23 March 1 p.m.

Irish Tourist Board,
Castle Street,
Belfast

Please bring banners/ placards and noise!!


Speakers: Mick O’Reilly TGWU
Davy Carlin Chair ARN
Jon Glackin Co-Ordinator Street Seen
Paddy Hughes Dep. Pres Queens University

Co-inciding with protests occurring in Dublin, London and Amsterdam against Deportations..

Please spread the word...

by NTR Sun Mar 20, 2005 19:56

Same question to you Joe.

Any sign of you making a move on the imprisonment of asylum seekers in Northern Ireland?

Statistically, 75% of our asylum seekers come not from Nigeria or Romania, but Northern Ireland.

Of course, with a jail cell awaiting, who can blame them for bypassing that human rights and racial paradise.

Why not sort out the Woomera on your own door-step and show some spine before preaching to the "deep South" about their minimal measures to contain a broken system.

by Davy Carlin - ARN - Street Seen Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:35

Firstly -NTR have a look at the ARN website and you will see what we have done

URGENT!


Dear friends can you pass on the word about this urgent picket on Wednesday.

The deportations continue - see below - including the issue of a key anti racism activist also being detained.

Please circulate and lend your support by attending. See you there, Davy Carlin



Stop The Deportations
Cead Mile Failte!
Who are they fooling?

Wednesday 23 March 1 p.m.

Irish Tourist Board, Failte Ireland {Welcome to Ireland}
Castle Street,
Belfast

Please bring banners - placards and friends


Speakers: Mick O’Reilly TGWU
Davy Carlin Chair ARN
Jon Glackin Co-Ordinator Street Seen
Paddy Hughes Dep. Pres Queens University

Co-inciding with protests occurring in Dublin, London and Amsterdam against Deportations

This is an urgent appeal..we must put pressure on the Racist Goverment Policies...

Stories coming from deportations would make your blood boil....


One woman in an act of protest to her deportation stripped her clothes off as the only means of protest open for her. 5 male Garda held her down as they forcibly sedated her by needle!!

More and more horror stories are coming in...

Lets not let the Irish Goverment away with this


Join the protest - bring friends etc.

by shoegirl Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:38

"The recent removals just about keep the multi-million devouring, asylum processing system alive.

Without deportations, would you agree, the point in processing claims at all, collapses?"

If you are correct in saying that removing only 65 people out of potential thousands, then you have answered your own question. The deportations make a small dent on the system, but very often applications have been mishandled by the government organisations that look after the asylum process.

Deportations have nothing to do with the "asylum processing system." What they do is remove people who no longer have leave to remain in Ireland.

This may actually be nothing to do with asylum. An australian friend of mine was under a deportation order 5 years ago for working whilst waiting for a work permit. White, blonde haired and blue eyed. But still regarded as foreign. Another australian, this time a colleague in my then job, had at the time been waiting and incredible FIVE YEARS for her work permit to be processed. She was working for no pay. If she ever got paid, she'd have been subject to a deportation order, even though her husband was legally working in Ireland for years.

Deportations are also likely for anybody working without a valid permit, or more correctly, being paid for working without avalid permit. Strangely enough, Ireland is quite happy for people to give their labour for free . . .

There are two totally separate problems at the moment - one is the ugly racism that has swept some of the country, and the other is the countries complete lack of a coherent immigration policy. Every case, work permit or asylum, is down to a case by case basis, with the sole exception of special groups like the Bosnians that the UN asked the gov to take in about 10 years ago. Otherwise there is no will at all to formalise a proper immigration service that make sense. For example one of the most incredible things about the work permit system is that you must leave the country in order to apply. I've known of south africans going temporarily to London while their latest visa is processed. How ridiculous can you get?

by NTR Mon Mar 21, 2005 19:24

Shoegirl.

I appreciate that you take my point on the sheer pointlessness of processing thousands of asylum claims and removing only the tiniest fraction of those that have made unsustainable claims.

You mention applications being mishandled. I find this difficult to reconcile. Every single case passes through the hands of a number of people and a number of tiers of investigation, appeal and due process. A mishandled claim is manna to a lawyer who would win judicial review relatively easily where obvious mistakes have been made.

Deportations in this instance (ie the removal of 35 Nigerians) have everything to do with the asylum system and public confidence in its continued administration vis a vis financial and moral support.

I believe you are confusing normal immigration with asylum. The only thing they have in common is that the people in both instances, are non-citizens coming from abroad.

One comes to work and complies with our laws (for better or for worse). The other pleads entrance based on persection. In accordance with our obligations under the 1951 Convention, we agree to determine if that protection is warranted. If it is not, there is no moral ground to simply transform them into the former category of immigrant and grant them a right to stay here - on superior terms.

If one was to weigh up the two options in this scenario - wouldn't one be foolish to pick the route that ties them to an employer, denys them medical cards, education for their childern, housing, susbistence, social welfare entitlements and access to a host of expensive legal services.

Asylum as a concept is diluted and debased by those who ignore the underlying reasons for its existence.

Legal immigration to this Country is the second highest per capita in the EU so to claim we have no coherent immigration policy is simply disingenuos.

by NTR Mon Mar 21, 2005 19:41

I looked at your website and saw nothing whatsoever to do with the locking up of asylum seekers in Northern Ireland alongside paramilitary prisoners.

No sign of organising marches, demonstrations or events to highlight this issue either.

You are an opportunist exploiting this Countries legitimate right to administer immigration according to its laws.

I suspect that this is irresistable to you as you have little or no support for your policies in your own jurisdiction.

Equally, you made no noises when we deported Romanians last year or demonstrated in the same way.

Like your soul-mates - you look at skin colour first, and last, and blind yourself to everything else.

Like racists do.

by D Mon Mar 21, 2005 20:45

So you are looking for specifics rather than the numerous marches and rallies we organised against racist attacks {including those by paramilitaries} - and a host of other issues we mobilised on

Nevertheless to amuse you -

well not only have we held protests at the detention centres but ARN steering group members are activists in the Refugee action groups - which organises regular support - solidarity - and protests in the North on this issue.

This is detailed on another ARN site- {including pictures} which many would know about - but with your tone and attitude you will not be forwarded the site details.

And people will understand that.

But on a lighter note -

‘an opportunist’ - magnificent!

Jurisdiction and all that talk - wonderful!

Soul mates - superb!

NTR - I believe I am going to enjoy debating with you when I find a moment.

It is when I come across such a stance as you have taken that makes me know what I and others are doing is right.

Indeed NTR my engagement with you, although very brief, has already intensified both my interest and determination to find out more about the Immigration laws and racism in general - in the 26 counties.

I will though start on that issue that perturbs you most and will ensure you that I will take every opportunity to rise it through many avenues and at every chance.

Who knows we might even get a demo organised

So NTR- thank You for raising that awareness with your stance - which of course you are fully entitled to - as I am to mine.-

by soundmigration Mon Mar 21, 2005 21:39

A few points NTR...

What do ya mean NTR by:
"Asylum as a concept is diluted and debased by those who ignore the underlying reasons for its existence."
the above may sound meaningful and profound but actually is liguistic waffle!!!! Asylum has many meanings to many people and as such is not a cloased concept in itself.. from your previous posts i'm assuming the that you are refering to some paralegal draft of what asylum can mean in reference to a societies legal system....that, my friend is entirley the problem. To limit your personal interpretation to that of a legal definition does yourself a great disservice, and kinda makes it a little boring and stifling to have any meaningful discussion beyound repeating what you have read or heard from others(however informative that may be in and of itself)...

what DO you mean by the concept of asylum???
for me i find it kinda odd to look at first reference to the state for some meaning behind what asylum is or should be..

i agree with jack white that people should be free to travel as they like.. i also agree with you that you see this as utopian. i see free movement as a principle that has yet to be applied.. to disregard to examine a particular principle solely because it is "utopian" suggests that you don't perhaps you have become kinda indoctrinated into the approach of acting within a parameter where you only fight for what you know already you can win....i'd sure as fuck like to hear some meaningful utopian speak from our 'leaders' in this country. stated aims and goals like free health care, free and meaningful education, proper wealth distribution , sustainable work practices, jobs that aren't flexible and skill and soul robbing, shorter working weeks, less sterile consumerism and the replacement of active citizens with passive consumers, a place where people aren't feed fear by media and spin, a place where young women( and men) aren't forced into self loathing because of patriachail sterotyping and the commodifying of our sexual selves and each other...... yeah sure all these things can seem "utopian" as im sure the abolition of slavery seemed to many like you self back in the day....That has never been a reason to ignore the latent and inherent desires of justice that we all have the capacity of tapping into

Since your so eager to encourage others to take some action onthis issue, i was wondering just what is it you do yourself that lets you sit so smugly at your screen

by NTR Mon Mar 21, 2005 21:44

Thank You Davy.

It is my intention to reciprocate.

When I think about multiculturalism, I need only reference your neck of the woods to see the "peace walls", segregation and apartheid that any racist would be proud of.

When I think about human rights, I need only reference your neck of the woods to see the proliferation of what the McCartney sisters call "chastisement". I.e. the maiming or murdering of individuals who get out of line, punishment shootings etc.

When I think about racism, I need only reference your neck of the woods to demonstrate that the colour of someone’s skin matters little for vile bigotry to proliferate.

But, When I think about asylum seekers, I am out of my depth as your neck of the woods is happy to turn a blind eye to them so long as they all go to the "deep South" and bypass your multicultural, human rights and racially pure paradise.

Perhaps we should take a leaf out of your book and bang them all up at 'er Majesty’s pleasure.

We would not have to suffer the ordeals of deportations if we created an environment where asylum seekers were simply terrified to apply in the first place. Then, perhaps, we too could lambaste other Countries that give them every chance, allow them access to their Country and their wallets and remove them, only after they fail to justify their presence and refuse to leave.

I take heart from your assertion that you will learn more about our Immigration laws as you are ill qualified to join the debate on grounds of practical experience. That is of course, if you can find five minutes away from your work addressing the aforementioned, clearly trivial and secondary problems - in your idyllic neck of the woods.

by NTR Mon Mar 21, 2005 22:08

Lets get something clear. When a person applies for asylum in this country, they apply on the following grounds:

A refugee is a person who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country…"

You do not need a law degree to understand that much surely. It is not a moveable feast nor could it be if we are to process claims for refugee protection against agreed international standards. If we are to depart from this standard, we should withdraw from the convention and agree a new one - supported by the people who will finance it and suffer it’s consequences, good and bad.

Removal of our borders, in case you missed it has already happened in controlled circumstances. We allow freedom of movement to the 450 million peoples in the EU. But, there is an element of reciprocation and provision to manage that process so as not to allow such movements damage reciprocating Countries and precede social discord. You may recall, we restricted welfare for the first two years to newly arrived immigrants as one measure to discourage abuse by those unwilling to participate in our society on our terms.

by jack white Mon Mar 21, 2005 22:33

"But, there is an element of reciprocation and provision to manage that process so as not to allow such movements damage reciprocating Countries and precede social discord.
You may recall, we restricted welfare for the first two years to newly arrived immigrants as one measure to discourage abuse by those unwilling to participate in our society on our terms."
... and the mask starts to slip a little. So migration of people's betwen different E.u countries has to be managed to prevent social dischord. And what defines participation in society on our terms? What terms are you talking about?

by soundmigration Mon Mar 21, 2005 23:00

the north of ireland/northern ireland are whattever ya wanna call it hapens to be my neck of the woods...and ya seem to have a very 2-D and singular purpose in what would be hard to ignore as a blatently sectarian attitude... i would call it racist except that folks north and south of the border aren't a different race...(not going into identities either)
so is your beef with the davy fella are is it with folks from the north generally...

does the collective respondsiblities of us all equate with the power held by a few ( with guns and fear in the north, and with cigar smoking empty suited free marketeer delboys down here)... im not so sure NTR, but you increasingly sound like an empty suit yourself.... who is this "we" that you talk/type about.....
do you draft legislation or sumfink
"we restricted welfare for the first two years to newly arrived immigrants as one measure to discourage abuse by those unwilling to participate in our society on our terms"

i don't restrict anyones welfare( to the best of my ability and knowledge) big lad!!!! And the more of the stuff i read from you, the more i sense that i have a massive difference in the concept of what you and i might mean by "our society on our terms"

id suggest you dont want anyone coming to these shores for whatever reason ....if they didnt live by the sectarian, conservative and boring societal attitudes you hold so dear...

OH YEAH and just what is it you do to combat racism and inequality yourself ????? ya keep forgetting that bit when espousing others to take action...

by NTR Mon Mar 21, 2005 23:20

Same answer to the two replys.

Society on our terms - in the context : society structured under our laws.

soundmigration. No point - off topic - no comment.

by jack white Mon Mar 21, 2005 23:38

... even if you are trying to evade the question.

you said "we restricted welfare for the first two years to newly arrived immigrants as one measure to discourage abuse by those unwilling to participate in our society on our terms"
which with your 'clarification' reads as: we restricted welfare in order to discourage abuse by those unwilling to participate in the society structured under our laws.
which means what exactly?
that those who would access welfare would be unwilling to live under Irish law? Is there some kind of correlation here that i'm just not seeing?

by NTR Tue Mar 22, 2005 00:25

Emm, your last theory.

by jack white Tue Mar 22, 2005 00:46

don't tell me you're not going to try and back that up or anything?

by soundmigration Tue Mar 22, 2005 01:49

"soundmigration. No point - off topic - no comment."

seems like i can only have a debate in your terms of reference....which repeatedly seem to be narrow and conservative by themselves and have a great tendency to avoid any encompassing context..... Anyway i guess i can ask one more time..... in that great old philosphy of DIY.... just what is it you do in the area of asylum/immigration/migration that leads itself to human dignity, equality ?????

i sense this may be a question in a vacuum!!

Oh and i would suggest that if you life imput on this issue is limited to critisizing folks with your undoubted incisive posting then perhaps ya should find a more productive (or at least a more entertaining for the reader) hobby!!!

Sorry if the tone is dismissive but i just have little time for bombastic talkers who aint willing to walk a little

by NTR Tue Mar 22, 2005 09:26

Jack, come back to me when you know the difference between the Geneva Convention and the 1951 Convention first and when you have eliminated the word "rascism" from your vocabulary second.

by jack white Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:49

Well NTR you've explained the whole convention mix-up and I promise to exercise my spellchecker in future. Care to elaborate on how those who would access welfare would be unwilling to live under Irish law?
All this evasion just makes it look like you're trying to hide something...

by D Tue Mar 22, 2005 13:30

You give some more interesting phrases that I need to add to my list.

As for the sectarianism - anti sectarianism, anti paramilitarism etc - well I have been active, as have many, on these issues as well.

Your point on - ill qualified - to partake in this debate. Well us working class lads and lasses may not have the academia study of some - but do you know something- I do know the difference between what I see as right and what I see as wrong.

As for practical experience, although not specific - I do have enough of that.

As for jurisdiction - well as an Irish Citizen and an Irish passport holder I believe I have as much right to talk about such an issue as yourself.

Even if I was not I still would have an opinion.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t, 'your' jurisdiction' - actually vote - on an issue in 'my Jurisdiction’ in relation to the peace process. Not withstanding 'your government and governmental bodies' cross border - thing e ma jiggies - ands 'my governemnts' - on behalf of the people of the island of Ireland on many other issues.

I suppose that is about seeing those issues as issues for Ireland as a whole - and maybe, just maybe, strange may it seem, some people thing similar when it comes to Immigration - who knows?

Have to organise a march down there soon on the issue - any chance of lending a hand? - Maybe not

by Davy Carlin - D Tue Mar 22, 2005 13:36

Dear friends

There have been a number of good suggestions as to an alternative place as to have a picket against the deportations, such as Windsor house. But with the posters up, leaflets given out, banner made referring to Failte Ireland {Welcome to Ireland}, press releases sent, and word of mouth spread, the picket will be at the place arranged.

Various other networks are involved to lend support and other pickets confirmed shall take place in Dublin, London and Amsterdam.

There have been suggestions to also picket the BELB given that they are sitting in Academy Street at 2pm. The BELB have withdrawn funding to?English as an Additional Language Support Unit

I personally think this a good idea and some of us should go around after the picket in Castle Street

So to confirm the picket is at 1pm at the Irish Tourist board Failte Ireland {Welcome to Ireland} in Castle Street. Tomorrow, Wed 23rd.

The media will be there so it gives us an opportunity to bring this issue to a wider audience.

So bring banners, placards and friends. Hope to see all you there to support this important issue

Davy Carlin

by Davy Carlin Tue Mar 22, 2005 16:12

Also add Derry to the list of Cities demonstrating in Solidarity

by Davy Carlin Tue Mar 22, 2005 16:56

Now Glasgow!