Wheelock Family Attacked by Gardai Last Night

by very angry Fri Oct 19, 2007 16:38

just read a comment about the maloney case, the young lad from crumlin.
it has been found by a circut court judge that john maloney senior was assaulted by gardai in sundrive garda station and awarded 26 grand for breaking his arm and beating him up.
2 me this is just unbeleivable how they can get away with this to ordinary people it makes one very angry.
there is a need for a public inquiry in the john maloney case and that of terence wheelock,
obviously the familys are backing up what they say is happening to them and there loved ones.

by NIALL Thu Jun 07, 2007 20:09

Justice for Terence Wheelock Terence (aged 20) died of injuries sustained at Store St Garda station on the 2/6/05 in very suspicious circumstances. Support the call for a full public independent inquiry in to this tragic death. Saturday 9th of June, 1 pm Meeting at Lourdes Chapel .... Sean McDermot St. March takes place through the North Innercity and will arrive at Store St garda station, where a petition to the new Minister for Justice will be signed by the community and supporters. The Campaign for Truth needs your support.

by observer Thu May 31, 2007 20:05

the inquest in to the death of terence wheelock has heard the some of there forensic expert witness will not be a loud give evidence, much to the dismay of the wheelock family.
Even though the state has failed to carry out simple tests ie testing the blood stained clothes, looking at photo's depicting bruising befor giving submissions. and having fought the state red tape at every turn. they feel they have been badly let down.
The inquest is set to resume on the 12th and 13th of july for hearing,
here is some coverage over the last couple of years.

terence wheelocks death reported
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0919/6news.html

family protest for answers outside the dail.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0323/6news.html

reports of assault
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1122/6news.html

more recently
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0530/6news.html

by tom Mon May 28, 2007 15:55

more questions in the sunday tribune yesterday, in relation to this death.
apparently the inquest is to be heard this wednesday and is set to turn the gardai sworn evidence on its head.

by observer Wed May 23, 2007 16:33

RTE news today at one.
amnesty interenational has called on the newly established garda ombudsman to look in to the case of a terence wheelock (20) who died in garda from injuries in garda custody.

by nel - swp Mon May 14, 2007 11:40

With the election in full swing the people of the nth innercity must put preasure on there local politicians and press for a full indepedent inquiry.

The people of the innercity must keep up the preasure for an inquiry

by niall Sat May 12, 2007 18:20

if this gang of gangsters we call a goverment changs hands i wonder if the family of the late terence wheelock will get there inquiry.. for to long they have been ignored we need to support them . i intend to address the election campaignors on this issue.. hope readers will do the same..
good look to the family.

by maura groves Fri Mar 30, 2007 14:42

I attended last saturdays conference by labour youth.
Listened to what larry wheelock had to say and the questions posed by the audience.
It beggers belief that with all the corruption in this country it still goes on unchallenged by the mainstream.
The wheelock family has had to endure an ordeal that no family should ever have too.
They have been put throught the mill by the state and the gardai.
Listening to the lenghts of the cover up and intimidatiion by gardai was startling.
There was palpable sense of frustration in the audience as larry laid out the failings and minipulation of the system by gardai.
one of his many pionts, outlined the facts of the case and the circumstances in to his brothers death.
Other members of his family attended also including his mother and father who were visibly upset as he laid out the case.
I found it interesting that with all they have had to endure he stated that the majority of gardai are good.

That it was a few individuals with in the force involved in his brothers death, e went on to nameone of these individuals and stated that there names have cropped up in the past befor his brothers death.
Defending and protecting these people was detrimental and extremely damaging to the force.
All in all there campaign is getting stronger and a public inquiry is no longer an if ,in the interest of the people of ireland . it is a must

Larry wheelock and Aodhan o Roirdain

people who attended ATGW sat 24/3/07

by noel murray Thu Mar 29, 2007 17:58

basillisa i take your piont about "retired gaurds"
but i dissagree.
as donegal has shown us there are no criminal prosecutions against corrupt gardai that have retired.
and i have yet to have seen one brought befor the courts.
no this fellow will go to his party, plenty of slapbacking, and " nothing to worry about".
This is the sad fact of accountabiliy of these gardai in our society.
ONLY a full independent inquiry will take these fellows out of retirement.
But one thing it shows is that the modus operandi is always the same.

by basillisa - human rights Thu Mar 29, 2007 00:02

there will be no protection for any "retiring" gardai or otherwise in connection with mr wheelocks death. all will be brought before the courts and justice will prevail. cover-ups like the terence wheelock case and tom corcoran (waterford) are the very reason the gra were opposed to the garda reserve - afraid of whta us the public would find out. i know already what goes on in most of our stations. corruption is rife, but is on its way out...............many boats are about to be rocked

by noel murray Wed Mar 28, 2007 16:50

The inquest today of the late terence wheelock was adjourned till may to give dr marie casssidy more time to veiw the photograps.

It has also emerged that a controversail garda who spearheaded the botched internal garda investigation Detective Superintendent oliver hanley, is to retire today.

It is ironic that on the day of an inquest in to the death of the nth innercity lad has been chosen for retirement.
It will be the detectives last function as a garda.
The superintendent has been accused of stonewalling the family of the late teremce wheelock,
he had refused to let the wheelock family take possesion of terence clothes for tests in earlier requests
.
they where granted permission to have experts carry out tests when it was revealed by the garda forensic scientist that there was blood on terence clothes and that he had been instructed by the detective superintendent not to carry out tests.
mr hanleys retirement now puts him beyond the remit of the newly established garda ombudsman due to come in to force in may.

by fachtna - simon community Thu Mar 22, 2007 17:09

The familiy of three different campaigns for justice united recently at liberty hall dublin while attending a play written about bloody sunday by civil rights activist eamon mc cann.
They vowed to support each others campaigns, the campaigns were the stardust campaign,
the bloody sunday campaign, and the wheelock campaign.

campaigns for justice unite

by simon Wed Mar 07, 2007 16:40

The recent evidence that has come to light.
(although was available to gardai ie.bloodstained clothing)
They had these items at there disposal and with held them from terence wheelocks, mother and father
Has shown that the wheelocks are not mad or anti garda, they have never straighed from the truth.
the allegations that the family made immediately after he was admitted to hospital that his body was covered in bruises is true coupled with bloodstained clothing this is very damming for gardai at store st.
These allegations were strenously denied by gardai, the family deserve an independent inquiry now.

by jenny Tue Dec 26, 2006 00:32 finglas

reading some of the comments espeacially the earlier ones. ie. lelia comments that the wheelock family where not reliable in allegations.
have to say looking at the dates of those posts.
the family had not seen the clothes that the gardai took with out therre permission when he was addmitted,
they had fought tooth and nail in the courts until the coroner instructed a senior garda that the inquest could not go ahead until they were produced, it now transpires after being tested that there was a substantail amount of blood on mr wheelocks clothes.
My piont being with hindsight, is that the wheelock family have not exaggerated anything.
The people who have been critical {and theres nothing wrong with that} have been off the mark, the wheelock family have been on the botton.
good luck to them.

by nel Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:13

A motion for an inquiry has been passed by dublin city council for an indepedent inquiry in to how terence wheelock sustained his injuries at store st garda station on the 2/6/05.
There now seems to be a political response to the familys requests (story http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80049)

by mick Tue Dec 05, 2006 17:23 clomel

This legacy left over from the church state that a garda word is infallible, its like a bad hangover.
these people can not be trusted to investigate themselves, and throw out that bllody bible in the courts, its nonsense,
if a garda wants to get up and lie then he will. no bible is going to tell him to squeal on his mates or his force.
its a joke.
Its is clear and has been for a number of years that gardai like every force through out the world have been commiting human rights abuse's on its citizens and the most vunerable at that, a bully force.
its time to stop this . the wheelock family and what happened there son in gard custody it the latest example.
I applaud the stance this ordinary working class family from dublin have taken.
They refuse to be intimidated by rogue cops,
I supposse they have nothing to lose they lost there son, there home of 20 years...
When you got nothing to win you haven nothing to lose.
The gardai have taken so much from this family .
its a disgrace.
i support there campaign for an independent inquiry, its the very least they deserve.

by Justice to be served Tue Dec 05, 2006 02:05

Sure Sean didn't the Mc Breaty family hit one another and all their friends as well and just to add to that they planted bombs all over the place.

Stop talking a load of rubbish I bet your one of the Garda that had his baton out for the attack.

Sure the guards are showing a great amount of respect for the people of ireland in mayo.

What those guys need is a serious lash back from the people and I think its on the way the fright will linger afterwards for a long time.

Now behave you uneducated fool

The indymedia is not trusted by the people? thats a bit rich coming from someone who writes like an editor or maybe a press officer for the Guards leiyle or however you spell it.

Bring in Nuala O Loan don't let the Guards investigate themselves any mor its just stupid and unjust you wouldn't see the likes of it anywhere.

by sinead Mon Nov 27, 2006 18:57 city centre

The inquest in to terence wheelocks death certainly with the revelations of late, cast doubt on the gardai version of events.
There inconsistencies and there contradictory evidence, left some of them struggling at times there seem to be a lapse in a lot of memories a collective forgettfulness, all stated that there was no marks or abrasions on mr wheelock and that he was well treated, that he was passive when arrested and that he seemed to be in a good frame of mind, (even though he was arrested for a criminal offence allegedly being caught "redhanded". mind you in garda evidence he was caught in a garden not in the alleged stolen car.
Most of the gardai contrdictory evidence did not tally with there own custody records, this was put down to mistakes and errors on individual gardai part. also in sworn evidence gardai put certain members of the force in the vicinity of the cell area. put when these gardai were called to give evidence they disputed this and denyed even been there!
custody records noted no visible injuries on the young man nor did any members "notice" or see any marks or abrasions when they searched the deceased, stripsearch that is down to his shorts. They notice no blood nor any marks.
That was there sworn evidence.
How ever the family legal team produced 35 photos of marks and bruises taken in the hospital the day after his admittance 3/6/05.
The garda's own froensic scientist stated that there was blood on his clothes tracksiut top, bottoms, and shorts he was wereing under his bottoms.
These were to say the least very stange revelations in light of the gardai own version of events.
The coroner brian farrel postponed the inquest to give marie cassidy time to reveiw her submissions in light of the new evidence befor the court , she had earlier giving evidence that she had examined the deceased body after 3 months after he sustained his injuries. she stated that she did not seen any injuries. when the photos were revealed she stated that she had not seen them and did not relise that mr wheelock had been in hospital for three months and accepted that his body could of healed itself in that time.
The inquest continues on the 15 of dec next month

by tom Sun Jul 16, 2006 20:46

yes there was a story in the indo also 15/7/06 ann marie walsh, broadsheets getting on board, something is brewing, wonder whats down the line. video footage is going to be amain factor when it comes befor the highcourt the wheelock family have become very aware of the circumstances they find themselves, in protecting themselves through the lense, tells people the camera does not tell lies.
hope there lives can settle down it has been a traumatic time for them. and sorry for there loss.

by corruptmediawatch Sun Jul 16, 2006 15:58

Story re being forced to move out of home reported in Times (15/0706) months late. Their lawyer Ms Yvonne confirm they wwil l taking case against gaurds for harrasement.

by jim Mon Jul 10, 2006 15:19

read pseud detective work al tells lies

by pseud Mon Jul 10, 2006 14:59

I was there
author by Al publication date Mon Oct 31, 2005 20:42

You can all run around making allegations all you want but the reality is I was there, I was in the station when he arrived and when he was taken out.

I know he wasnt beaten or abused. I dont need to provide links or statements from anyone else, I saw it all 1st hand.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/72587

by maura - justice for terence wheelock Mon Jul 10, 2006 14:52 withheld due to garda intimidation nth innercity

YOU state that there are no complaints, images, or ,video evidence. I Beg to differ. people are intimidated by local gardai doing house to house inquirys. Sean o'casey ave and the peole who live there have very large familys 12 to 13 children would not be uncommon as in any disadvantaged are ravaged by drug abuse and social and economic depression that working class familys suffered and are still trying to shake off. In such large familys some siblings will run to trouble others will not.
DUBLIN city council have extremely strong powers with regards to anti social behaviour and familys up there have been hit with eviction orders.The wheelock family were not.
Others are afraid to cooperate withthis internal investigation and view them wi suspicion plus the questions being asked are something on the lines like "did you witness a gaurd being assaulted" or" what were you doing there" but they have given evonne banbury sworn affidavits and there are something like 12 witness's in the wheelock family alone plus the visitors to the house the maloney family.And Yes there is VIDEO FOOTAGE i seen it why would they give it to the gardai so they can put there spin on it.
AND what about the CCTV in the area? why was it not working on the day? let me tell you what is on the video is gardai rampaging through the wheelock home while detective cars look on outside, it was all uniform gaurds assaulting larry wheelock, while others in the house sound coming from the house are terrifying shreks from women and children, this is no platform for evidence the high court will see this footage and evonne banbury has stated to journalists there is indeed video footage of this traumatic event. There is more to this case than over simplistic views form narrowminded garda al, if i was a neighbour who witness's what happens every day up there i would not cooperate with local gardai either so i can mark myself for intimdation also. dont think so aL. AS for the "50 convictions against the wheelock family" does that include the babies as well al. or are you talking about the mother and father? or may be the dog? The family were drivenout of there home by your colleagues through intimidation, and are well respected in the area all they had to do was huss and that area would explode you know this. They have always been dignified in their quest for answers from independent source's not the like of you or your colleagues. This will go to court and some of your buddies careers in the force is finished, in a very public way. good riddens to bad rubbish.

people want answers

DEATH IN GARDA CUSTODY

by finnymick Mon Jul 10, 2006 05:03

"have over 50 convictions against them as a family"

We all know that is not how the law actually operates in this state, the idea of trying an entire family sounds more like something out of mediaeval times. But it does give us a clue about how (some) individual members of the gardai think.

by Gerri Mon Jul 10, 2006 04:19

You say that the Wheelock family have 'over 50 convictions against them as a family, from robbing people to robbing cars to burglary and assault'

This may well be true, I don't know if it is and I can't see how you know how many convictions the Wheelock family have. It doesn't give the Gardai the right to assault or cause harm leading to death of a man in their care and custody.

That is if the Gardai did cause the death of Terence Wheelock.

The only place I have seen this issue debated properly is on Indymedia, it has received little mention in mainstream media. The only way for the Gardai to put it to rest and arrive at the truth of the matter is to have a full (independent) enquiry on the events of the night in question. I can't see why there is any hesitancy in doing this, it should be done on all contentious deaths in Garda custody.

In relation to your 'spin by Sean O'Casey avenue' when you say you had a tourist with you that had been mugged - this doesn't surprise me at all, the whole stretch from Parnell St to Fairview can be pretty risky to walk down, when I lived nearby people were constantly getting abused verbally and sometimes physically. I don't see why you raise this issue now though. Just because some of the people that frequent the area in question are predatory violent nasty types doesn't mean that every person from here is.

Being from Sean O'Casey Avenue does not give the Gardai the right to attack people - this makes them as bad as those they are supposed to defend us against, as well as worsens relations between them and the community. You can't pretend that the Gardai don't do this - there is strong evidence that crops up time and time again that strongly suggests that this can be common practice among the Gardai.

by Al Mon Jul 10, 2006 03:20

STJ,
Dont bother arguing this point. All the evidence has failed to materialise, no complaints were made with or without solicitors. No images, no video, just accusations.

To the rest,
Its spelt An Garda Siochana and just so you know, you also mis-spelt Yvonne Bambury.

BTW, these honest decent people have over 50 convictions against them as a family, from robbing people to robbing cars to burglary and assault. Honest and decent? I think not.

I have also put the record straight concerning the various allegations about the cell, etc but your all so blinded by desire to attack Gardai that you cant see the reality.

And I took a spin by Sean O'casey just the other day. Had a tourist with me that was kindly able to ID the 3 little thugs that had just robbed her.

If you can tell government from home PC and internet access why has the various allegations that Im being paid to post here never been proven or dis-proven? Track the IP and state my ISP.

by martin luther king Fri Jul 07, 2006 20:12

looking true the thread noticed annonymous journo's discrediting this story.
Well their is now a high level garda probe in to garda harrasment, intimidation and assaults, on the wheelock family and their home, which incidently the family have moved home after 20 yrs because things became so unbearible, they gardai are interveiwing neighbours, journalists, soliciters, individual gardai concerning these serious allegations . So it seems there is validity to these allegations wonder if stj will spare a thought for this story or maybe the journo is just another garda pr puppet. the piont is there is story here " if there was a story i'd print it" eat your words its a hard pill to swallow,
mainstream media must not ignore local gardai crimes.

by number 6 - legalize freedom campaign Thu Jun 01, 2006 15:31

Hi Jim.The unfortunate Ruling in Our Supreme Court regarding the release of sex offenders on Constitutional grounds is the direct proof of Article 40.
Sec.i of the Act in question was deemed unconstitutional and the informed offender invoked an Article 40-unjust attact -unlawful imprisionment.He can actually sue the State.The legal system,Solicitors and Barristers and the rest of the Legal Mafia will not do this for you,their CAREERS depend on it in maintaining the status qou and to extract big fees from clients with circus pagentry in open Court. It is all a big lie.Go ask them.
Why not ask them to enter an Article 40 on your behalf and see what reaction you get.Don't just believe me.

by jim Thu Jun 01, 2006 15:03 freedomjig at hotmail dot com

dear no.6

Thank you for your informed information.

could you tell me to whom would the registered letter be addressed too and what it should contain.

and would this intervere with solicitors legal action.
Which careful not to prejudice any ongoing legal action befor the courts.

grateful if you keep us informed.

thanks jim.

p.s emailfreedomjig@hotmail.com

justice for all

by number 6 - legalize freedom campaign Thu Jun 01, 2006 01:24

Dear Jim. It is not the issue of what remit or powers a Judge may have or need ,that the said Judge enters upon an Article 40. The Judge is duty bound to enter an inquiry into the situation upon the submission of an Article 40.
One has the right to enter Our Courts and request the adjudicator in the process(Judge) to enter upon an Article 40 ....'unjust attack' for example. The forced entry into a Dwelling is an unjust attack. A lack of due process is an unjust attack.There are many more.
The last Judge who abided by Our Constitution was Ceabhraul O'Dalaigh. If a Person entered the Courtroom where he was presiding over a Case, it could even be a Murder Trial, he would stop the Hearing and empty the jury from the Court. He would then the listen to the Person's request submitted under under Article 40. It was his duty to do so. It is a Constitutional imperatieve. It is the Judge's duty to do so today. The Courts are the People's Courts not the freemason's Courts. Don't loose heart. Keep things 'on the recored' with a registered Letter.

by jim Wed May 31, 2006 18:31 freedomjig at hotmail dot com

Reading your article i am aware of article 40 peoples rights enshrined. but am not aware of such an enquiry from a judge what submission would this fall under i can then check it out , and contact the family with your information. What remit and powers would a judge grant in such an inquiry? all the best n6

justice for all

jim

by number 6 - legalize freedom campaign Tue May 30, 2006 23:31

okay folks. we must get organized.
please read. no matter what the issue is regarding the railroading of the people's rights. the cure is very much the same.

the wheelock family must do the following. reply to this article i am writing and we can converse over this network.
i will show you how to enter an article 40 into our/your high court in relation to your situation. all citizens are protected under the constitution. buy a copy e2.55.any decient book shop. article 40 is where our personal rights are enshrined.read it. every person has the right to enter into court an article 40.(do it yourself....do not engage a barrister,who is. incidently a member of the bar...(british accreditation research). very few people know this.
you go to the high court.just walk in. you request the judge to enter upon an article 40 along with your affidavit.
photocopy all this. no member of the legal proffession will do this for you,you must do this yourself. the judge is lawfully bound to enter an inquiry on the issue straight away.(read article 34-5).please reply and we can meet to discuss same.

by jim Mon May 29, 2006 16:30

people will be meeting on saturday at 12 noon at are lady of lourdes church middle sean mcdermot st.

supporters of justice for the late terence wheelock will then proceed to store st garda station.

This is to mark the first anniversary and 1 day. when terence sustained his injuries in the most unusual circumstances. The family want his clothes returned so they can have them independently examined.

The state has refused to return them to date.
there is an ongoing legal battle befor the courts.

locals and supporters will bring flowers to mark the occasion. hope people will support this campaign

THANK YOU jim

by supporter Mon May 29, 2006 12:34

see you there on Friday

by jim Sun May 28, 2006 17:08

despite garda intimidation the wheelock family will continue to seek answers to there very relevant questions. and will publicly continue to do so till they get answers.
supported by there local community it is the express wish of the wheelock family that there protest on saturday 3/6/06 12.pm at lourdes church be carried out in a peaceful and dignified fashion.
They would also like to thank everyone who has signed petitions to the goverment and people who have supported this campaign for justice.

why was the cell renovated immediately after this incident despite court order?

why was terence's clothes taken without permission?
why want the state return them?

why did emergency service's not see the cell?

why was there marks and bruise's on his body?

why wont individual gardai admit arresting terence?

why were garda name's crudely scribbled out of custody records?

if no gardai take responsibilty of arresting terence where does this put the internal garda investigation?

why by gardai's own admission did it take 10min's to ring an ambulance?

why were the family driven across town to the wrong hospital gardai in transit sking the family for directions?

These are very serious concerns to the family, local gardai have for the last year projected ignorance and arrogance to the wheelock's in there stonewalling of the wheelock family, and more recently garda intimidation and assaults, violating there constitutional rights and illegally entering there home with out warrant and assaulting family members in front of young children.

while mainstream media are aware have contacted local TD's for verification and have chosen to ignore there intimidation.exception{ village magaziine}

please support this campaign the family have never accused gardai of anything, they have raised very serious questions to treatment of suspects in custody and garda procedure's. They deserve answers. it is in the interest of every citizen to maintain are civil rights and human rights. when serious questions arise from a death in custody the must be answered if not only to appease loved one but also the public at large.

Sat 3.6.06 12 noon lourde's church sean mc dermot st

all peaceful demonstraters welcome

thank you jim

by Removefiannafail - www.soldiersofdestiny.org Sun May 28, 2006 02:10 jmcd444 at yahoo dot com

What you see is what you get.

A law unto themselves

by maura Sat May 27, 2006 18:03 nth innercity

i think it is ironic that the state and gardai are obsessed with cctv through out dublin espeacially in working class estates, but fail even to implement cctv during police interrogations, despit legislation requiring them to do so, since 1995. also there failure to put cctv in the corridors in garda stations and reception area's were young people consistently say they do be assaulted in these corridors.

CCTV should be put in all major garda stations espeacially were deaths occur and there is no adequate explanation"s from gardai. as to the circumstance's of there deaths there mere word is not good enough for the dead person's loved ones it must be verifyed independently to clarify all circumstance's sourrounding arest and detention and death.

CCtv is cheap and easy availible there is no excuse not to implement this technology, it would benefit the gardai from accusations of assault and explain why so many people assault gardai in custody and self inflict themselves with bruises and marks.
it would also benefit the suspect that if they were assaulted would verify this through cctv. also they should be in garda vechicles like most eu states and us states. dont see The GRA screaming for this advancement in law enforcement.

by linda Thu May 25, 2006 16:39

very good read, pictures, and witness's

perhaps now people will know why mainstream media dont want to know. Hot patatoe

by Reader Thu May 25, 2006 13:05

Has a two page spread about this story with witness interviews and photos.

by tommy Tue May 23, 2006 18:48

The gardai entering the home with out warrant is unconstitutional.

The family's rights are gauranteed under the constitution. 40.5

[7.4.426] The entry of a dwelling against the will of the owner is
authorised by law in number of situations. At common law a search
warrant can be issued by a district judge (or peace commissioner)only where the gardai state the belief that stolen goods are on the premise's otherwise the principle of {entick v carrington} applies, so as to prevent the executive from cliaming a " general warrant" to look through private premise's. Formerly, in the absence of a warrant, the gardai could only effect a lawful arrest at common law in a person's home where they had reasonable grounds for suspecting that he had commited a felony, unless they had been given permission by an appropiate person to enter the premise's
This now has to be read in the light of ss3 and6 of the criminal law act 1997 which, respectively, abolish the distinction between felony and misdemeanour and provide for a general statutory power of search and arrest.

by what happened? Tue May 23, 2006 02:59

also associated with strangulation, or anyone with expertise of choke holds,
or any other accidental death that occurs ie... cork night club patron accidently killed by bouncers by technique. cork lad killed accidently by man recieving 4 years.

tally of station records dont add up. nor thus forensically cleaning a prison cell. with out emergency service's seeing a potential death scene.

the truth will come out independent investigation.

thank u

by Mark Tue May 23, 2006 01:54

"The injuries sustained in store st garda station on the 2/6/05
by Mr Wheelock, was acute coma by asphyixation"

..... also associated with hanging? ...

by Garf Tue May 23, 2006 01:26

One thing that is obvious is that this story is pissing some people off in a big way. That can only be encouraging for the Wheelock and Maloney campaigns.

Don't let the knockers get you down!

First they ignore you
Then they laugh at you
Then they vilify you
Then they fight you
Then you win.

by tim Tue May 23, 2006 00:38 town

you should not laugh at other peopl's misery it could fall back on you. karma.
go up to summerhill for a good nose the garda are outside the wheelock home there laughing to.

the family inside there not they are under seige

intimidation is mounting coming up to the first anniversary.

a sad reflection of an garda shiocanna just a few dozen blackining the whole force This did happen {laughing}

out of couriosity your not sitting in a garda station using there computer are you?

by Laughing Mon May 22, 2006 22:37

This is fantastic .... I think I may make up some B**S*** about the Gardai myself if it gets the same attention!! As mentioned before, the reason this didnt make mainstream newspapers is because it is unfounded rubbish. Do you really believe that this would be missed by the Herald if it was true? C'mon folks ... again, thanks for the entertaining read. I think I'll go read the National Enquirer now for some more entertaining facts :)

by paul byrne - same Mon May 22, 2006 21:39

Dear readers i would like to explain that there is substantial video evidence that shows that gardai attacking various members of the wheelock family along with 150 or more credilble whitnesses that saw that un- provoked attack on firstly Larry wheelock because he questioned a seargent on the harassment of his family. the wheelocks have at no time accused the police of murdering terence it has been made quite clear that they do not know what happened, all they maintain is that there are many dubious questions surrounding thier sons death that the only proper impartial medium of investigation is a full independent inquiry. this family have miantained impecable standards while mounting thier campaign for justice.they have been both peaceful and dignified something they should be comended on under these circumstances. I whitnessed what happened on wednesda the 17th of may and i can tell you this even after the assault of larry wheelock that man at no time abused or assaulted the three guards that were on him all i can say now is to support this family's campaign for justice my name is paul byrne and i don't hide behind pseudonoms. Justice delayed is justice denied

by k Mon May 22, 2006 20:19

Talked to a friend of mine who works in RTÉ who might pick it up tomorrow for the radio news... she may even be reading this thread now (hello if you are!!). We'll see what happens.

by M.R. Mon May 22, 2006 18:45

STJ, you are welcome to come up to Summerhill to check the facts. Or perhaps that is too much effort for you - easier to ring your friends in the guards?

by linda Mon May 22, 2006 18:31 sean o'casey ave summerhill

stj attacks on chekov i think are designed to divert this thread from the real issue. the wheelock attack by thugish gardai

This will come to the media but only when it suit's them to use it.
i'm not indemedia i use there medium to try tell what certain familys in summerhill are going through just because garda wont pose while there beating people up is not are fault but there are witness's

and just because where from summerhill, does this mean were not credible witness's are 10 year old child not credible a traumatised 3yr old ?
. how can a least a dozen gardai be justified in the wheelock home with out warrant?

and there is evidence and i tell you this if it was given to the gardai in are area it would never be seen again.
but its not a solicitor has it.
STJ its alright for you to say it did not happen were are the camcorders, your right you need to carry some sort of vidoe footage in that area. who knows when these attacks are going to take place the garda have the advantage they ininate it .the attacks.

why dont you ring the local T.ds they beleave it happen why would so many people lie?

you people want to talk about your code of ethics well we all know there is no code in the tabliods

they depend on garda for storys thats the facts

by Barry Mon May 22, 2006 18:21

The only thing dodgy I can see are the constant attempts to undermine the Wheelocks account , one of which came from a government computer.

STJ hasnt provided any proof that the piece is inaccurate at all . Mebbe if he spent some time asking people in summerhill as opposed to persuing what looks like a personalsed vendetta on Indymedia hed be helping raise the standards of Irish journalism from the gutter were they currently lie .

by chekov - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Mon May 22, 2006 18:05 chekov at indymedia dot ie

"you don't care whether the story is accurate or not."
"This does not mean that we attempt to prove that the article is objective, balanced and 100% accurate"

I care a lot about whether the story is accurate or not. Indymedia's editorial process simply doesn't require prior proof that it is 100% accurate. If you had even a basic comprehension of English you would be able to see that your paraphrasal of my quote is entirely inaccurate (what a surprise, I wonder where you learned that). Once more, if you have any actual evidence that there are any elements of the story that are inaccurate please add them. If not, I'm sure that there are some asylum seekers who need outing as child rapists (according to my sources).

by STJ Mon May 22, 2006 17:59

Blatant lies, eh?

"......This does not mean that we attempt to prove that the article is objective, balanced and 100% accurate........."

In the very own words of Chekov Feeney not six inches further up the page.

by chekov - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Mon May 22, 2006 17:55 chekov at indymedia dot ie

The fact is, no credible evidence exists. The word of the Wheelocks alone is not credible evidence. It's as simple as that.

I would prefer to allow the readers to decide whether it is credible evidence.

You admit yourself that you don't care whether the story is accurate or not.

Making up blatant lies about what I have said is a very poor way to champion accuracy don't you think?

This thread has been derailed enough. Anybody who wants to comment on editorial policy is invited to sign up to the editorial list. Please keep this thread for new information and / or comments about the wheelock case.

by STJ Mon May 22, 2006 17:41

That was a typically boorish and long-winded attempt to cloud the issue and foist the focus onto the MSM. The MSM was not reckless enough to run this tripe because there is no evidence.

You, an IMC editor, claim to have verified this story. You have not. You have no evidence that this happened as the story says it did.

Quotes from the Wheelocks are allegations, not statements of fact, and should be labelled as such.

If 30 police had raided, for no apparent reason, the home of a bereaved family, and there was any evidence to support this, every newspaper in the land would be falling over itself to print the story. The fact is, no credible evidence exists. The word of the Wheelocks alone is not credible evidence. It's as simple as that.

You admit yourself that you don't care whether the story is accurate or not. This wouldn't get printed in a secondary-school newsletter, it lacks even the most basic journalistic rigour. The headline says it all. "Wheelock family attacked by Gardai". There is nothing, apart from the word of the Wheelocks, which points to this conclusion.

I repeat, if Indymedia is to adhere to the independence it eponymously claims to have, either

a) Substantiate the thrust of the article with evidence (and IMC holds that responsibility as the editors and publishers of the piece, regardless of the fact that it is an open publishing forum. That is not a misunderstanding of the forum, either.)
b) Make clear it is an unsubstantiated allegation by labelling the allegation as such (for that is all that it is)

or

c) Withdraw the article.

This is not a discussion of IMC editorial policy. The policies are what they are. The issue here is that this particular article does not stand up, and the IMC finger-waggers like Feeney refuse to acknowledge that truth.

by Curious Mon May 22, 2006 17:23

You say you don't work for the Sunday Times so what does ST stand for?
Sunday Tribune, Some Times, or Sexually Transmitted?

by chekov - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Mon May 22, 2006 17:15 chekov at indymedia dot ie

Your arguments are piss poor for a 'media watchdog'. Why don't you apply the same standards to yourself and your cohorts that you do to the proper media.

I might start from an observation that your various silly attacks on me from a position of anonymity rather undermine your claims to the moral high ground. Secondly, I have never knowingly possessed any 'cohorts'. Thirdly, I try to rigorously apply the highest standards of evidence and accuracy to the material that I write. If you can find any claims that I have made in print in the past that I have been proved wrong on, or that have not been backed up by evidence, then I invite you to point them out to me.

Having addressed these casually inaccurate and typically sloppy positions in your argument, I will address your substantial claim about the standards of fact checking and verification employed by indymedia and how they compare to the corporate media. These differences are not just quantative, but are also qualatative. Having said that, a cursory look at the contrasting coverage of the hunger strike in the corporate media and in indymedia does show a serious qualatative distinction. The corporate media is full of unverifiable claims about the nature of these mens' applications (Taliban, rapists, etc) which is all completely unsourced and based upon leaks from the DoJ - which can never be verified due to the confidentiality of the forms. All of the corporate and state media has printed such unsubstantiated allegations about the asylum seekers as fact, despite well known examples of such leaks being complete fabrications (I refer you to my articles on the Tribal Secta reports in Village, which were strongly echoed by Gene Kerrigan in this weeks Sindo who simply said "the leakers lied"). By contrast indymedia has refused to publish inaccurate and unsubstantiated claims about these individuals (spongers, chancers, taliban, rapists, murderers etc). This refusal has caused us to be attacked repeatedly in our comments by racists, government employees and persons unknown who have taken great umbrage at our denial of their "freedom of speech" to spread smears.

However, in addition to the quantative differences between indymedia coverage and that of the corporate media, there is also a qualatative difference. That is to say that, in contrast to the corporate media, indymedia articles do not claim to be objective or balanced. That is a big difference. Our general model for the production of information is one which allows people to put forward different points of view and none of our articles purport to be a definitive version of events.

This means that, in terms of verification and substantiation of our articles, we never attempt to ensure balance or objectivity. We try to ensure that the information contained in the stories is accurate. Or more precisely, we remove material which contains information which we know to be inaccurate. In general, if we do not know that a story contains inaccurate information we allow it to remain with the assumption that any inaccuracies are likely to be raised in the comments or by means of our various contact forms. This process of "peer review" works remarkably well as it is normally possible for an intelligent observer to piece together a relatively complete picture of events from the combination of article and comments. It is also a process which is relatively normal on the internet - people generally have a fairly low level of trust for information that they come across on websites and read it with a healthy dose of scepticism. Nobody believes everything they read on indymedia, nor should they. It is only a pity that many people don't apply the same (or higher) levels of scepticism towards the corporate propaganda machine.

In certain cases, where we feel that an article has made claims that are of a relatively serious nature, we will remove the article for a period to allow us to ensure that there is some basic substance to the story. This does not mean that we attempt to prove that the article is objective, balanced and 100% accurate, we just carry out some checks to ensure that the incident actually happened and that there is some evidence to support it. In this case, we found an identifiable witness who was happy to put his name to the claims. That is sufficent evidence for us to publish the story.

You will also note that the article contains the information about the identity of the witness and contains quotes from him. By presenting the precise evidence upon which the article is based in the article, we allow the reader to make up his or her own mind based upon the evidence, rather than asking them to trust us. It should be noted that, thusfar, there has been no information put forward in the comments which contradicts any of the substantial claims made in the article. Your various attacks are based upon a misunderstanding of the way in which indymedia operates and a complete blindness of how the corporate media works and have added nothing useful whatsoever to the article.

Why don't you go out and show what a professional you are by unearthing new information about the incident? Wouldn't that be a better way to show your superiority than by making cowardly anonymous attacks on indymedia editors?

by linda Mon May 22, 2006 16:48 sean o'casey ave summerhill d1

Just go up to sean o'casey and ask the people everyone in the area knows what happened. and it's not thursday yet. try next month when new ombudsman comes out

everybody knows garda and local T.DS they are sworn rep's in the area
what would they have to prove?
the dog's in the street know from summerhill to the strand

cant send proof over the net can you. solicitors has evidence why would the family give it to indemedia

it's with the lawyers. just like mc nbrearty it came ot 10yrs later. they wer liars to so was frank shoor . dean lyons, was a twisted muderer.

go up to summerhill ask questions or just shut up.

by Linda Mon May 22, 2006 16:28 sean o'casey ave summerhill

this person stj. it did happen. what do you want?

to you want every neighbour to send you a personal affidavit.

there is cctv monitering that piticular ave in summerhill. when evonne banbury asked for it. she was told the camera does not work. by store st.
ring them ask them 016668000.
there is video phone evidence as shocked neighbour look on someone used there phone recording police in action. screams from the home police leaving it . they are as they say caught on tape

family no faith in garda corrupt complaints board.
ombudsman in next month wait for them.
if use compliants board. ombudsman would not take it on.

evonne bambury seized this phone immediately. ring T.D joe costelloe he'll tell you it happened his clinic is tonight oppos sean mc'dermot st church 8.pm

ring tony gregory T.D he'll tell you.

ring maria metcafe innercity forum she'll tell you she's at killiney court of buckingham st d1

ring the rotunda if your a jounalist the'lly tell you ring temple st they'll tell you unless it's all a big conspiracy to tarnish the good name of the decent gaurds in the nth innercity. people beating themselves up? kids , pregnant women?

or better still stj take a walk up to sean 'ocasey ave summerhill d1
and just ask the neighbours who will be giving sworn affidavits to family solicitor. they'll all tell you. so shocking it is truly unbeleavable eh?

the wheelock family have nothing to gain by this they are traumatised you idiot. and why dont you go up there tonight and see the 4 gaurds that are ther every night since intimidating the wheelocks outside ther home. this is in progress go up there and verify it your a jouno are'nt you

by kevin - imc eire Mon May 22, 2006 16:28

What paper do you work for then?

You know we all write for indymedia, and you're levelling criticism at us. How about letting us know what paper you write for so we can engage in constructive debate based on your paper's journalistic credentials.

I think you are a freelance writer who contributes to the Sunday Times, but I may be wrong - please enlighten me.

by STJ Mon May 22, 2006 16:24

There you go again. I shouldn't really care which paper you think I work for... (I repeat, I do not work for the Sunday Times). But you seem to be using this supposed (and fictional) link as somehow relevant to the Wheelocks' story. The only reason I say I don't work for the Sunday Times is because of this supposed relevancy to your argument.

As ever with Irish anarchists, never let the truth get in the way of a good opinion.....

by Joe Mon May 22, 2006 16:07

I've referring to you as a Sunday Times journalist because that is what you are. I don't see why you are now denying this. But if you want to be something else go ahead, its the indymedia v broadsheet comparison I'm interested in here, you job is only interesting in illustrating your own blindness.

Beyond that as already posted if you apply your standards to the Sunday Times article I posted the link to you will see them fall down. That article is full of quotes which are not even sourced to named gardai. Instead its the usual 'gardai' said or 'senior' gardai said anonymous crap. This article on the other hand has its quotations ascribed to particular identifiable people.

And in my mind claims that have a named source behind them are a lot more verifiable than the 'senor anonymous X' stuff that you seem to find acceptable in mainstream publication. As the details of this story emerge we will find out how reliable the Wheelocks are, we will be able to form a judgement for the next installament in this tragic story. You anonymous gardai sources are subject to no such check, they can and do tell lies again and again without journalists ever calling them to account or even refusing to play the 'senior gardai said ..' game.

by STJ Mon May 22, 2006 15:42

Why the hell do you keep referring to the Sunday Times? I don't work for the Sunday Times, I told you that already. I have no control over what that paper writes. Are we clear on this one now?

Independent verification, my dear little Joe, means just that - independent. Mr Feeney and the other IMC editors are supposed to have independently verified this. Quotes from the Wheelocks are not verification. They are the subjects of the story and as such are not independent, and you can't just take the subjects' word for it, you see? If you do, you should preface everything with 'alleged' or 'alleges' or 'according to'. This piece of fiction chose to tell the subject's side of the story as gospel, with no attempt to speak to anyone else. Just look at the headline.

The whole thing is nonsense.

by Joe Mon May 22, 2006 15:28

Really STJ your a bit of a joker.

Your trying to hold indymedia up to standards of proof that your own paper doesn't use and that most of the rest of the Irish media don't use. Plus when I point out the bizarre shit published two years back you try and tell us We are talking about the "story" on this thread, not smokescreens from Mayday designed to deflect from the shoddiness of the piece above. Nobody cares about Mayday anymore

I think you might mean 'I don't want anyone to care' but in terms of many of the readers of this site Mayday 2004 was a huge wake up call that it wasn't just the tabloids that made stuff up but the broadsheets as well.

Actually just look at the Sunday Times coverage of the Afghan situation from this Sunday at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-2190031,00....html

The whole article is full of quotes and claims from unnamed gardai. This article in comparison ascribes its quotes to named individuals.

by STJ Mon May 22, 2006 15:00

Your arguments are piss poor for a 'media watchdog'. Why don't you apply the same standards to yourself and your cohorts that you do to the proper media.

"I didn't write this article, but I independently verified that the incident happened."
Show me the verification. I don't believe that you have any.

"I know the record of the Wheelocks who have not made any claims that I know of in the past that they haven't been able to back up"
They can't back this one up, for a start. And mawkish crap that you know and trust the people who wrote it means nothing to the people who don't know or trust the people who wrote it. You are asking people to take your word for it, which makes this story an opinion/interpretation, not fact.

"We will also be adding further details (pictures and video) to this story if we can get them (which looks hopeful)."
So if you have no pictorial evidence yet, how do you know you aren't being spun an exaggerated yarn by the Wheelocks?

If you can't produce any independent verification (I didn't see any in the piece), I guess it must be based on anonymous sources, then? (And yet you have the gall to castigate the proper media for its use of sources). Why haven't you named the sources of your independent verification?

Do you think that calling the Wheelocks and asking them 'Is this true?' and then takng their word for it is some sort of independent verification?

Of course it's not. This isn't a news story, it's a press release for the Wheelocks. Don't you think they would have a vested interest in exaggerating this? Are you that naive?

I have no beef with a bereaved family looking for answers. I'd make exaggerated unprovable claims too if my brother was dead. But I wouldn't expect a publicly-published "news" story to stand up on the back of them.

by maura Mon May 22, 2006 02:29 summerhill d1

the likely hood of any journo having a debate here is nil.
they know this goes on they simply dont care.
it's not a story, they depend on garda to much for crime stories that sell newspapers.
they dont want to isolate themselves from colleagues or garda.
with the exception of one or two.

They want video's of people's head being bashed in.
a nice picture indeed

by anon - . Mon May 22, 2006 01:43

Well the mainstream media journos get to come on here and debate with the writers. Any chance we'll be given access to the Sindo or the Sunday Times?

by maura Sun May 21, 2006 15:07 summerhill dublin 1

funnily enough the garda timing in the attack on the family and home,

coincides with the Dail recess, like all bullies they picked there time

people must remember, that these are the SAME gardai involved in his arrest last year, when gardai arrested terence last year they had a history of attacking youths in the area,

they attacked the mullhal famiy from rutland cottages umpteen times because they made complaints from assaults they they received, this was during the antidrugs campaign late 90's and early 0's

when heroin was ravaging the area and drugdealers were trying to intimidate community activists. The likes of the mulhalls stood up and would not be bullied, they then none had criminal convictions and are a decent family but thanks to stich up garda they have convictions for assaulting them!

them same garda u77 tighe oleary and mulqueen 212 assaulted the mulhall family one of their sons commited suicide his note was wrote on the back of his charge sheet for public order offences.

the same gardai arreasted terence wheelock outside his home last year at the age of 20 he lost his life, the same gardai are harrasing younger siblings since last year, the same gardai led a baton charge on the wheelock home a couple of days ago.

The same gardai were posted outside the wheelock home in recent weeks, incrediable as this might sound it is the truth ask the familys, the have made umpteen complaints againt these people among other people but their garda unions and their appeals process which ways to heavy in favour and their investigating superiors biased attitudes in the area complaints board a dam joke.

what kind of idiot would post a garda involved in terence's death outside the wheelock home? then take protesting leaflets rip them up and try to arreast him for liotering outside his home!

then rally these local garda bullies to charge the home of the wheelock's attacking women and children illegally entereing the home with out warrant. and then deny it.

but the advent of video phones and cameras. the pumped up testerone taking steroid thugs were caught, these wasters cant catch real criminals or drugdealers they prey on a family looking for answers in to the death of a brother and a son they are a large family
who loved their brother and son they deserve an independent inquiry
they were underestimated by gardai you cannot do this to people it only makes their resolve stronger, summerhill is tough area with its problem but to victimise a family because they criticise gardai, shows just how arrogant gardai are towards people in the nth innercity

out these bully thugs they are not the mainstream just a few there day is coming

by cool j Sun May 21, 2006 04:44

There is a number of patterns emerging here. Firstly RTE's and others(you know who you are!!) failure to cover the story. Were well use to this in Erris Co. Mayo with last weeks ramming of a fishing boat by one of Shell's vessels(not the first incidient of this nature eithier!) failing to receive any coverge at all at a national level. Secondly the issue of Garda time and resources which we are constantly told are under such extreme pressure. Yet they never seem to be too hard up when it comes to hasseling people excercising their right to protest in a peacefull manner like the Wheelock family. Again we experinced this in mayo last summer when at least 3 squad cars and 7 guards babysat the SHell compound at Bellanboy 24hrs a day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by T Sun May 21, 2006 01:27

>I am honestly disgusted by this latest news! there...
Yes many people are too.

>they cannot get away with this, please highlight this in the media...
Ah the media and I assume you mean the 'mainstream' media which would be the corporate media and state media like RTE. The problem with the media is that it is owned and controlled by the very wealthy. They have no interest in changing the status quo in society and that includes things like justice, equality, health of the people and the enviornment and of course democracy. Why in a democracy we would do things so much differently.....

...You see all the derailing comments above and one of whom admits he/she does work work for the 'media' shows that the 'media' have no interest in reporting things like this. Instead as you can see here they are actively trying to discredit and smear it. They dislike Indymedia intensely, because it is allowing a little bit of light to shine and thus as it grows more of the populace might become more informed and therefore will want to change the status quo. Nope the 'media's job is to control and manipulate public opinion by controlling what stories or news are reported and not reported and how a particular slant or spin is put on it. The basic line from the 'media' is that we live in a democracy (a lie) and this is as good as it gets (also a lie) and any problems (crime, health, global warming etc) are caused by human nature (not quite). There's no mention of the role of multi-national corporations and how the structure of society (i.e. capitalist form) sets up an environment that seems to reward the worst side of human nature (i.e. greed and lack of solidarity).

So the appeal to the 'media' is unfortunately never going to work. Democracy does not come easy, you have to constantly work at it and that means we all have to be much more proactive in seeking out the news or opinions ourselves. By relying on the propaganda issued daily from the one way traffic of newspapers we have collectively given up our chance to be properly informed and have consequently allowed parasitic entities to take control of the wealth and destiny of the nation.

The Wheelocks face an up hill battle, but my instinct tells me that the attack by the Guards was a step too far and perhaps out of this they will get their independent inquiry.

by Mark Travis Sat May 20, 2006 23:56

I am honestly disgusted by this latest news! there just does not seem to be any foot being stamped by the ministed for defence and indeed the garda commisioner - it seems to be once u get a job of a gardai your free to do what you like and even beat up people, injure people and even beat a pregnant woman with a baton.

this is disgusting, please let me know what i can do to start supporting your protests ect

they cannot get away with this, please highlight this in the media

by pinnochio Sat May 20, 2006 22:09

He really is a Judo expert ...

But is this kind of - alleged - behaviour really consistent with the Bushido codex ?

by Kevin - imc éire Sat May 20, 2006 22:07

The families of John Moloney and Terence Wheelock held a vigil today outside Bertie Ahern's constituency office "St Lukes" on the Drumcondra Road during his clinic. Again they were calling for independent inquiries into their sons' deaths.

Regarding the incident the other night in Summerhill, the evidence from video phones has been handed over to solicitors, and a complaint is going to be made to the new Garda Ombudsman (Kevin Haugh) when he is appointed. It was felt that making a complaint to the Complaints Board would be a waste of time.

There is video footage too of more than half a dozen Garda standing around outside the house for three consecutive nights... might be able to up this at some later point.

Handbags for Justice

The Moloneys

The Wheelocks

by j Sat May 20, 2006 20:28

... is a judo expert.

by peter Sat May 20, 2006 19:18 summerhill

does anyone relize that the garda leading the baton charge in the wheelock home {remember without warrant} was none other than the garda involved in terences arreast last year a garda mulqueen from fitzgibbon st station.

and to people who say i cant beleave it the family are saying the same.

by lady bracknell Sat May 20, 2006 10:28

Jefferson Lord my dear boy you really are missing the point ....
Gardai do not beat up or harrass middle/upper class families.
Being for the most part humble country lads, the boys in blue know how to tug the forelock and defer to their social superiors.

Please do feel free to correct me if you can cite one incident since the foundation of the state of a nice respectable middle/upper class family being harrassed or beaten up by the 26 county constabulary ...

by Tj - IRSM (personal capacity) Sat May 20, 2006 03:41

Solidarity with this brave family. How terrible to lose a family member and also face such attacks and dirty tricks. My sympathy to them.

by chekov - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Fri May 19, 2006 22:11 chekov at indymedia dot ie

I should have known better than to look for rational discussion.

Ah well. Back to the drawing board with a few press releases for me, then. A few anonymous sources. A few scurrilous stories about WSM people inciting violence, robbing chickens, fiddling with kids or something else I can make up in 10 minutes.

But at least people will get to read them.

That's fine. As long as you can find non-anonymous sources who are happy to stand over them. You really seem to be missing the fact that this story is mostly quoted from a named and identifiable source. When your lot in the Murdoch-O'Reilly hack-stable make crap up, you use anonymous sources (in fact I can see posyt's unverified anonymous comment making the headlines). Sometimes you are even so cowardly as to print your smears under "sue denham", "marie nolan" style identities of convenience.

I didn't write this article, but I independently verified that the incident happened. Furthermore I know the IMC journalist who wrote it and I know the record of the Wheelocks who have not made any claims that I know of in the past that they haven't been able to back up. Therefore, I'm perfectly happy to stand over this story. As I said, the gardai are more than welcome to publish their version of events. Furthermore, if we learn at any stage that details of this story are inaccurate, we will amend them. That's how indymedia works. We will also be adding further details (pictures and video) to this story if we can get them (which looks hopeful).

By the way, have you been on to the guards about it? If you were so concerned about sources (as if!), you can sort the problem now by getting on to store street or the wheelock's solicitors and asking them. Or, heaven forbid, you could ask around in the area about it.

And what on earth is the obsession with me in any case? I had nothing to do with the production of this piece, I merely asked an anonymous source who contradicted the claims of our verified and named source to provide details with which to back up his comment. I did this because I understand that anonymous sources on the internet are.

by Immegrant in Hannover Fri May 19, 2006 20:53

I've been foolowing this story longer then a cup of tea needs... This discussions leads to nowhere. i'd like further informations of so called eye witnesses...has anything new come up. Can't anyone over there talk to action related people ..isn't that possible?

by Jefferson Lord Fri May 19, 2006 20:39

If the Wheelocks were a middle/upper class family then no one on Indymedia would care if the Gardai harassed / beat them up. In fact, most Indymedia posters would probably think it justified as they are so full of middle-class (self) loathing.

Working class = salt of the earth.

Yeah right.

by Barry Fri May 19, 2006 20:31

If no-one reads these stories then why are you here ?

by STJ Fri May 19, 2006 19:34

I should have known better than to look for rational discussion.

Ah well. Back to the drawing board with a few press releases for me, then. A few anonymous sources. A few scurrilous stories about WSM people inciting violence, robbing chickens, fiddling with kids or something else I can make up in 10 minutes.

But at least people will get to read them.

by R. Isible Fri May 19, 2006 19:10

A part of verification means you talk to the group you are making allegations against.

And then if you're a journalist for the MSM you then fabricate a story and pretend that because you talked to them that you're following some sort of reasonable procedure.

This all boils down to anonymity my friend: the Wheelocks are not. You are. PosyT is.

The only anonymous sources in this story are thus you, who hasn't provide any evidence or information, and posyt who is not a verifiable person (and could very easily be yourself in sock-puppet mode).

As Chekov points out above the Wheelocks have been very careful, restrained and dignified in their approach to this and their actual substantive claims about the "unfortunate" removal of vital forensic evidence in the cell have been confirmed.

If this story turns out to be true then I'm sure you'll publish a full retraction under your own name? Yeah?

I had to laugh when I read your fishing for Chekov's "anonymous sources". That's how the bottom-feeders of the MSM operate isn't it? Back to retyping the Garda press releases for you mate.

by Barry Fri May 19, 2006 18:30

This person questioning the validity of the Wheelocks account of the gardaís behaviour sounds like a "journalist" with a bit of a grudge , someone made look like a shoddy useless idiot in the past . A wonder he never called chekov a "silly boy" while he was at it .

by STJ Fri May 19, 2006 18:17

Of course I'm a journalist, Joe. A cursory check on my IP address could tell you that. But your 2+2=5 conclusions on the basis of an anonymous username, which could stand for absolutely anything or nothing at all, are typical of the way-off-the-mark jump-to-conclusion type of crap which has peppered this thread.

We are talking about the "story" on this thread, not smokescreens from Mayday designed to deflect from the shoddiness of the piece above. Nobody cares about Mayday anymore.

Either use independent evidence to substantiate the opinions masquerading as fact above, make clear that it is an unsubstantiated allegation, or pull the story.

If it was true, I'd have written the story myself.

by Joe Black Fri May 19, 2006 18:06

I presume STJ = Sunday Times Journalist?

Anyway either way the level of verification already in place for this story (ie named people making allegations under their own name) is way ahead of the sort of anonymous cop told me in a pub material that is regularly used as front page news by the Sunday Times and other papers. Anyone who remembers the bizarre pre-Mayday 2004 stories that were published by professional 'journalists' will only laugh at your attempts to undermine indymedia by demanding standards of proof way ahead of your own.

Fact checking at its best

Not just the tabloids

by jonny Fri May 19, 2006 17:56

someone claims to have been at an event, therefore they are claiming said event occured. moron

by STJ Fri May 19, 2006 17:54

"Also, posyt claims to have been there and contradicts only one aspect of the families allegation, implying that everything else is correct."

Jonny, go back to sleep. That's moronic

by STJ Fri May 19, 2006 17:52

You'll have to take a few journo classes, Feeney.....

A part of verification means you talk to the group you are making allegations against. If you have anonymous sources, why aren't they quoted as anonymous sources in the piece? Why are your anonymous sources, the use of which in the proper media you regularly castigate, considered more reliable than the anonymous posting on this site? What difference does it make that it came from a government computer? Don't people in working class areas work as civil servants too? How do we even know it was a government computer? How do we know anything on the basis of this crap?

You haven't "verified" this, not unless you produce independent evidence.... and publicly produce it. Otherwise, you are merely asking people to take yours, and the Wheelock's, word for it. Looking at some of the blatant opinions and unsubstantiated speculation in the piece, I don't think anyone could reasonably be expected to do that.

There is nothing to make this believable, I'm afraid.

It's merely hyperbole, breathless polemicism, and so-far groundless finger-pointing.

Perfect for your mate VB then, though...

by jonny Fri May 19, 2006 17:46

Chekov asked posyt to expand upon his comment, that is not bullying. There was a story reporting this incident on indymedia 2 nights ago which was removed as it was unverified. There's no double standards at work here.

Also, posyt claims to have been there and contradicts only one aspect of the families allegation, implying that everything else is correct.

by chekov - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Fri May 19, 2006 17:39 chekov at indymedia dot ie

Chekov, why is the family's version of events given any more credence than the witness you just bullied and threatened to remove? Don't you think that independent verification should be sought of the veracity of the Orwellian claims (which in IMC are ten to a penny, I guess), given their obvious stake in how this sort of thing is perceived.

There is a little bit of a difference between the statements of multiple people who were victims of the attack as verified by IMC editors and several independent sources and an anonymous person posting from a government computer. When this story was originally posted, 24 hours before, it was removed until we could verify it from personal interviews and background checks. The comment is simply an anonymous person posting from a government computer. See the difference? If so, explain it to your mates in the sindo, it could come in handy!

by STJ Fri May 19, 2006 17:32

Top job. I'd trust the authors of that story with my life..... really I would..

Where are the independent witness statements? The only independent witness to come forward has been threatened with censure by Chekov Feeney.

Who contacted the Gardai to get their version of events?

Why is a supposed news report peppered with blatant opinions, insinuations, assumptions and speculation.

Chekov, why is the family's version of events given any more credence than the witness you just bullied and threatened to remove? Don't you think that independent verification should be sought of the veracity of the Orwellian claims (which in IMC are ten to a penny, I guess), given their obvious stake in how this sort of thing is perceived.

What an absolutely disgraceful piece of "journalism".

by Caobhin Fri May 19, 2006 17:05

Cop-lovers in the corporate media and the likes of "Leila" above would doubtless have no problem accepting statements from cops as "evidence"- "evidence" often obtained from their expertise gained over the last 40 years beating confessions out of suspects.

by jonny Fri May 19, 2006 15:16

"The short answer to your query as to why we haven't covered the alleged
attack on the Wheelock family is that we hadn't heard about it. We are
now checking it out to see if it is true.

Thank you for bringing the matter to our attention."

by lady bracknell Fri May 19, 2006 14:21

"If this was a middle class family accusing the police of brutality ..."

Presposterous suggestion !

Middle class families are never subjected to police brutality and hence would never raise such impertinent accusations ....

by chekov - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Fri May 19, 2006 14:07 chekov at indymedia dot ie

This is not the same as being PROVED to be reliable. It has not actually been proved that Wheelock was murdered by the police (nor has it been proved that he has not).
The wheelock family have not claimed this. They have been calling for an independent inquiry. The have proved to be reliable witnesses as all of the dubious elements of the case that they have raised have turned out to be true - the redecorated cell, the missing clothes, etc. The fact that, despite their obvious suspicions, they have refrained from claims that Laurence was murdered and concentrated on calling for a public enquiry does indicate that they should be treated as reliable witnesses.

In any case, as I said above, the gardai have every opportunity to correct the record if they disagree with this version of events.

Your claim that this is nothing to do with class is, I believe, completely false. You stated that there was no evidence to back this story up. You obviously don't consider the testimony of the family to be evidence. I sincerely doubt that you equally ignore testimony from everybody.

by Leila Fri May 19, 2006 14:00

Chekov - "They have proved to be reliable witnesses throughout this campaign."

How have they proved this? They have been campaigning that their son was murdered. This is not the same as being PROVED to be reliable. It has not actually been proved that Wheelock was murdered by the police (nor has it been proved that he has not). There are certainly unanswered questions regarding the death of Wheelock however that does not mean that everyone should assume that his family are reliable witnesses.

Class has got nothing to do with the matter. If this was a middle class family accusing the police of brutality I would also be requesting more evidence to go on than just the families testimony.

As for the witness - what time did this incident happen at?

by Joe Fri May 19, 2006 13:51

It's interesting to compare this call for evidence with the behaviour of the mainstream Sunday paper that seems to be running an anti-indymedia dirty tricks campaign. They regularly publish stories which are entirely based on unnamed people (who happen to work for the Gardai) making all sorts of weird and wonderful claims. This story on the other hand has a much higher standard, the people making the allegations are named and specific quotes are assigned to named individuals.

by chekov - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Fri May 19, 2006 13:40 chekov at indymedia dot ie

finger pointing without any clear evidence
There is clear evidence: the testimony of the Wheelock family. They have proved to be reliable witnesses throughout this campaign. Of course the media often considers that working class people are not reliable witnesses in general - while the police's evidence is generally treated as credible. Not on indymedia. Why would the family make it up? If it later turns out to be untrue, they would be discredited and you can bet your back teeth that the gardai would waste no time in doing the discrediting.

posyt: in what capacity were you at the scene? You should substantiate your claim to have been a witness or it will be removed.

by posyt Fri May 19, 2006 13:29

the pregnant women WAS NOT hit by a baton, she was elbowed by one of her family members by mistake running from the scene
i wuz there and saw it

sorry to ruin a good story

by Leila Fri May 19, 2006 13:27

Regardless of the amount of witnesses, these allegations at the moment are lacking sufficient evidence to convince the majority of the general public. This topic should be called "Wheelock Family allege attack by Gardai" rather than insisting it is the truth. It should also show some evidence which backs up this complaint, stuff like photos (surely at least one witness would have a camera phone in this day and age?), cops numbers, evidence of injuries backed up by a doctor, independent witness statements, that sort of thing.

I strongly believe in accurate, impartial news reporting. The current level of finger pointing without any clear evidence is exactly why the public tend to disregard Indymedia as a credible newsource.

by Ciaran Fri May 19, 2006 10:40

Leila,
the comment about "hundreds of people" is in inverted comma's, in other words its reportage of a spoken or written statement by a person different to the author of the feature.
Anybody then with reasonable understanding would infer it was probably meant as an expression (ie- lots of people saw this), rather then empirical proof, so to focus solely "how many hundred?" is pathetic nit-picking, when there is the large and more serious issue at hand.

But I bet it made you feel clever for two seconds. And sure if you badly need this kind of confidence boost, who are we to deny it to you?

by RTE - RTE Fri May 19, 2006 10:40

I guess, one story per week of cops harrassing victims of garda brutality is their maximum?

complaints@rte.ie

news@rte.ie

by bemused Fri May 19, 2006 09:38

Its quite clear to me that the Garda have something to hide and they are worried that any independent inquiry will reveal who was responsible for the death.

And I hope to God the unborn child in the pregnant woman is okay. The Gardai have an awful lot to answer for. They are just thugs. Hmm?? If you or I hit a pregnant woman with a baton we would be rightly up in court. Lets see if this happens to the Garda in question. Fat chance of that.

by x Fri May 19, 2006 09:10

The Wheelocks are right to wait to go down to Store St with legal and political backup when making a complaint and statements. After what happened to Terence, what happened on Wednesday night, and the recent news about Brian Rossiter's father, how safe would you feel going into a Garda station to try and stand up against them?

It's like the Gardai are trying to provoke them into a physical response to discredit their campaign. The Wheelocks have always conducted themselves with dignity and respect, at all times calling for peaceful protests (including the one coming up on June 3rd). Obviously this is putting the Gardai under stress. If the Garda continue with their thuggish heavy-handedness like on Wednesday night, then perhaps it is only a matter of time before Summerhill erupts, which is probably what they want, justifying scooping up a load of 'problematic' people and putting them away or shutting them up.

This case just gets worse and worse. Lets see the new American import try and sort this one out while maintaining the credibility of the Store St gang.

by young anarchist - anarchist youth Fri May 19, 2006 03:45

Solidarity with the wheelocks and all those who experience the real nature of the gardai, working class control of working class communties, shut down store st.

by oh Fri May 19, 2006 01:40

drama classes have long been on the timetable in tempelmore,
good to see debating skills are gong to be enhanced as well.

by to leila Fri May 19, 2006 01:21

People will be going down tomorrow to Store St to give statements with their lawyers present, also to make complaints.

Its in the article.

by real deal Fri May 19, 2006 00:28

Classes will be cancelled in Templemore tomorrow morning as the trainees try to impress their teachers with rebuttals.
photos would be good

by leila Fri May 19, 2006 00:19

Are there any witness statements from these "Hundreds of people" that saw this alleged event? How many hundreds saw this exactly?

by kevin Fri May 19, 2006 00:01

Text of leaflet is pretty much the same as that for the event on the calendar.