Riot Police are taking the men out of the Cathedal

by kevin - imc éire Sat May 20, 2006 22:50

just talked to someone down there. riot police have removed the minors from the cathedral as they are 'wards of the court' and have to be taken into care. nobody seems sure of what the situation is with regards to the older people on hunger strike. the minors were removed by ambulance. people calling for the refugees to be thrown out outnumber supporters of the strikers considerably. audio will be up in two minutes.

by Jon - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Sat May 20, 2006 22:50

The area is closed down.. access is hard to get.. vans are blocking the Kevin Street entrance..
GNIB vans are present
8 riot police vans are parked on the far side of st pats gate
Fascists cheering and gloating

by reader Sat May 20, 2006 22:53

Just picked up a sindo. Front page headline: "Afghan says: "I am a rapist and killer".

No named sources provided: "He is understood to have stated on his written application form" is all the evidence provided.

The Sindo are scum.

by Kevin - imc éire Sat May 20, 2006 22:55

recorded phone call live from the scene

900 kb download mp3

report from what's going on at the moment (9:45pm)
report from what's going on at the moment (9:45pm) 0.88 Mb

by Jon - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Sat May 20, 2006 23:12

Minors appear to have been removed from the Cathedral
2 GNIB vans have moved to Cathedral so seems they are going to attempt to take everyone out
Public Order Cops present appear to have no ID

by Jon - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Sat May 20, 2006 23:19

Islamic cultural Centre interpretors state " This was a negotiated choice".
Phone call from inside has said different.
People unclear as to the reality.

by Say Whaaaaaa? Sat May 20, 2006 23:20

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060520/ap_on_re_us/immigra...guard

by seedot (by way of ch.) Sat May 20, 2006 23:28

Hunger strikers are coming out one by one and being arrested. They are not resisting but are not going willingly. There are about 200 people out on the street, with a 2:1 ratio of the hunger-strikers supporters and those calling for their deportation / death / whatever. Apart from a brief scuffle, there has been no trouble, but a number of heated exchanges.

by Paul Sat May 20, 2006 23:30

What are they being arrested for? Whats teh charge?

by Jon - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Sat May 20, 2006 23:40

More vans have gone in..
Guards have moved a white van over to block one side of the path outside the Cathedral as Racists were throwing bottles..
Racists on one side and supporters on another..

Not all men are out yet..

A Guard has allegedly stated that one of the people present in a black hat stirring up trouble there is a National Front member

by seedot (by way of ch.) Sat May 20, 2006 23:49

Carrying a load of hunger-strikers. A protestor sat in the road in front of it and was removed without undo force. A second and third van have now left the cathedral. Ciaran Cuffe TD and Roseanna Flynn addressed the crowd to much heckling. They announced that the guards had arrested the men for forced entry, although they paid to enter the church.

by Kevin - imc éire Sat May 20, 2006 23:54

another mobile phone call report live from the scene at st patricks - recorded 5 mins ago. racists split by riot police from rest of crowd

1 mb mp3 audio

thanks to E for updates.

Another audio update from the scene - 10:45pm
Another audio update from the scene - 10:45pm 0.93 Mb

by kevin - imc éire Sun May 21, 2006 00:22

minors have been taken into care, not sure what that means exactly.

late night special sitting of district court @ the bridewell, apparently the men are being charged with public order offences rather than forcible entry. not sure what sections. press conference being held right now, updates hopefully from other people.

dont forget - this thursday - revolt video edit of the events in st patricks, indymedia film night, connolly room liberty hall, only five euro (apologies for shameless plug)

night night.

by Elaine Sun May 21, 2006 01:56

... Earlier tonight.

Vans Brought In To Block View

Van Goes In Empty

Ready To Roll

Men In Black

Fiddler Playing A Lament

by Elaine Sun May 21, 2006 02:14

.

GNIB Van Goes In Empty

As Does This One

Goes Out Occupied

Ciaran Cuffe - Just Before He Got Heckled

Rosanna Flynn Updates The Supporters

by Anthony Sun May 21, 2006 02:18

A previous comment reads "Ciaran Cuffe TD and Roseanna Flynn addressed the crowd to much heckling." It was Ciaran Cuffe who got the heckling when he praised the gardaí for doing a good job. A female activist who had received some hassle from Special Branch and other guards over the week then used the megaphone to give a different perspective on the role of the gardaí over the course of the week.

Rosanna Flynn later spoke to appraise the crowd of the men's situation and was greeted with applause.

by Deirdre Clancy - Pitstop Ploughshares/Unmanageables Sun May 21, 2006 03:06

It would be good if someone put up some photos of the rally at 2pm today. There was a fairly good turnout, and it was an important show of solidarity.

It's true that Ciaran Cuffe was the only one that was heckled. Rosanna wasn't. He asked for the megaphone from Fintan Lane and then proceeded to say how great it was that things ended 'peacefully' and how great the guards were (in effectively putting the men under siege and isolating them from their support). The greens have really nailed their colours to the mast on this one (not that they hadn't come out themselves as a pro-establishment party before this). None of this should surprise anyone. This is how green parties have developed in many countries on the continent. Some are barely distinguisable from the centre-right parties at this stage.

We must continue the struggle in support of these men.

by iosaf Sun May 21, 2006 04:13

everyone I spoke to about this here, where I live, or beyond where I phone or write to, expressed it :-
LOVE.
try and get some rest. maybe even ignore the papers tomorrow. we need you all to be strong for the next time. This was never just about the men who joined the protest, it was about Irish society and the Irish state & its attitude to its global responsibilities, & about justice & how it shapes the future, our future, not only of Ireland but of Europe & the wider world, an Ireland, Europe & wider world where race, creed, class, ethnicity or size of willy / clitoris - don't matter. Some of us call that "the republic".

We all need you to be strong for the next time, & always to be as _true_ as you have been.

THANK YOU - inch'allah! saleem! - gurb maith agaibh.

by AWI Sun May 21, 2006 04:15

These photographs give a sense of these guy's politics. Not the sharpest tools in the box when it comes to pr.

Idiot racists think this a convincing slogan!

Knuckleheads on parade

...and some more

by AWI Sun May 21, 2006 04:24

The knucklehead at the front in the last image is one them; those standing behind are expressing their solidarity for the hunger strikers..

by Barry - 32csm Sun May 21, 2006 05:26

the correct trerm is bonehead . And theres only one way to treat them , no mercy as theyd treat us .

by Adult Sun May 21, 2006 10:57

Treat the boneheads / knuckleheads as they would treat you ?

And how exactly is that ? How would they treat you.

All you know is that some people disagree with your worldview.

You know nothing more about them than that.

You are a prejudiced, bigoted little child. Prejudice is the root of racism. You might have more in common with a racist than you know.

by Ciaran Cuffe - Green Party Sun May 21, 2006 13:09

Yup, I did praise the Guards. I did that because we went from a situation on Friday lunchtime, where children inside had ropes around their necks, and were threatening to jump from a height, to a situation last night where nobody died. That is important. I also praised the Church of Ireland and Phil Flynn for the work that they did in talking and negotiating with the men. Many other groups and individuals including Residents against Racism did good work to help resolve matters and thanks to them as well.

Now it is time to move on and address the issues that made the group so desperate in the first place.

They have apparently been charged under Section 3 of the PROHIBITION OF FORCIBLE ENTRY AND OCCUPATION ACT, 1971 and have been released on bail and placed in hostels in Dublin.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA25Y1971S3.html

Let’s now move on and try and expose the difficulties, and change the way that the system works. Specifically the workings of the Refugee Appeals Tribunal need to be changes to ensure transparency and consistency. That requires putting pressure on McDowell and the rest of Government to reform the system. Other issues related to translation services, access to education, cooking in hostels, signing in, the quality of Free Legal Aid etc. All of these need to be addressed.

by News Sun May 21, 2006 13:14

A four-hour sitting of the Dublin district court has remanded 33 of the Afghan hunger strikers on bail to appear in court next week.

The court sitting, which was presided over by Judge James Paul McDonald began at 2am this morning and concluded just before 6am.

The men, who are aged from their late teens to their 60s, were all charged under section three of the False Entry and Occupation Act.

by News Sun May 21, 2006 13:19

The Church of Ireland has dropped all complaints against those who had occupied its national Cathedral.

by MichaelY - iawm - per cap Sun May 21, 2006 13:36

Roughly 10 hours after the last hunger striker was removed from the Cathedral and having just read that 33 of them have been charged and given bail [details as yet unclear], a few initial notes as a personal contribution to a reflection:
1. The support and solidarity to the hunger strikers of, what I call, the progressive movement in the country, or more specifically in Dublin plus DC's reports from Belfast and a few hints from Cork, grew slowly and gradually over the week as the process crystallised. This has not been merely an issue of three dozen plus Afghanis taking a [last-instance] stand....as many of the messages and opinions demonstrated in Indymedia many other aspects of the Ireland we live in got slowly to the fore. And comrades responded. Not to the extent some would have wanted. Not with the clarity and unity that some would have thought possible...yet - stronger and stronger as the week went by.
2. Simultaneously, four other aspects of the equation clarified:
A. The intransigence, arrogance and insensitivity of the power system in place came to the fore in all its glory. Any possible break, the type of which some had hoped and articulated earlier in the week, between the PDs and FF dissipated. Last night the State mobilised about 200 ordinary Guards, the Riot Squad (about 30 of them), I counted about 20 vans and a number of blue Immigration vans with blacked out windows. For what? For approx 30-32 hungry and tired strikers coming out 'voluntarily'.
B. The weakness and incoherence of what some call 'reformist' or intermediary political forces, such as the Church(es) and some of the 'opposition' political parties [particularly CC playing the role of a green] for whom all the key objective was to diffuse and stop the hunger strike, disorganise the opposition and finally get the issues in question out of the political agenda. Oh yes, hunger strikes are not a good tactic, oh yes we can fight this in the courts, oh yes we have done all we can, oh yes lets thank the Church and cops for all their understanding and lets go home now!
C. On the contrary, the very effective and gradually growing role played by SF, SP,SWP, the Anarchist Collectives and the LP whose militants were there, helping organise, helping to support, encouraging all. This is a key issue that must be built on over the coming months.
And D. the absolutely crucial role played by independent groups like the RAR and its supporters, the Unmanageables, the Anti-War Alliance and its constituent groups, the IAWM, the Indymedia Collective and its friends and a very large number of activists not affiliated to any group....including a number of local residents and comrades outside Ireland.
3. At the same time, the regressive forces, the political backwater of this country, also got louder and louder - and at the very end physically aggressive. Not just some of the local people, and particularly the young, who were continuously manipulated by ideologically coherent right-wingers, but sections of the press [see the woeful Indo rag today] and paid Government soldiers and power system ideologues who tried to flood Indymedia with their rant.

One final point: Those of us who were there for the week, physically and even intellectually, those of us who care, those of us who have dreams of a better, more equitable, more inclusive united Ireland should use this invaluable space to debate, discuss among ourselves, meet perhaps soon and move forward.

Solidarity to the hunger strikers who now have other hurdles to overcome
And my best and warmest wishes to all of you with whom we stood shoulder to shoulder this last week

by aidan Sun May 21, 2006 13:42

any chance of getting some news regarding the latest developments for all us ex-pats? i am getting plenty of news from corporate media and the Sunday papers online but would love to know what is happening on the ground. Are the men still hunger striking now that they have left the church? does anyone know where they will be staying etc?

by :-( Sun May 21, 2006 13:52

That's a funny list MichaelY. What about Antiwar Ireland who played a big, big role in the mobilisation?? Much more important than the iawm who were reallly slow to respond to this crisis and never really got stuck in. Didnt see RBB at any point.

by MichaelY - iawm - per cap Sun May 21, 2006 14:07

The role of the comrades I know of Anti-War Ireland was absolutely crucial in many areas. However, with all due respect to the message above, Anti-War Ireland is one of the constituent groups of the Anti-War Alliance where they are also playing a key role. As for the specific role of the IAWM....many of us were there from the first Sunday...and many of us continued to be there right through the week. Could we have had more IAWM members taking part? Of course, we could.
Finally, as mentioned before in many threads, particular references to RBB, and all other individuals of any party, should be addressed directly to them. I personally would have liked to see Pat Rab, Lady Wicklow, Gerry Adams, JG from the Greens, Joe Sherlock, Tony Gregory and many other 'leaders' there....is there any point me ranting about them? They were obviously busy defending popular interests elsewhere. Lets leave it at that.

by Franz Liszt Sun May 21, 2006 14:09

Michael also neglected to mention the party who's elected member had posted a comment 27 minutes earlier on this same thread - The Green Party.

lov'em or hate'm at this moment in time - they played a part.

by Say whaa? Sun May 21, 2006 14:10

Isnt the iawm a constituent part of the Antiwar Alliance also? Why did you mention them separately so???

by MichaelY - iawm - per cap Sun May 21, 2006 14:25

I had not actually seen CC's message above....it came on when I was writing my own. It's A FACT that Ciaran visited the hunger strikers a whole number of times. Talking to him you could see he cared and he wanted an end to this process. I was, however, very disappointed to hear him talk and then be heckled big time by all last night...Praising cops and Church [key parts of the State], while saying very little about the courage and defiance of the hunger strikers....well it was not very timely and sensitive. To say the least. Reading his message above, where he lays down his stall - one can read clearly what his and his Party's agenda is. And people can make up their mind about that stall.

by Kronstadt Sun May 21, 2006 15:07

Michael you are ignorant about what debates and advocacy occured within the Cathedral. You airbrush the RC Missionary priest who was interviewed and quoted on indymedia earlier in the week and the rank and file Christians outside the Cathedral in solidarity. You're talking shite, an overinflated perception of your own role. But whatever justifies your poor entryist politics go right ahead, until there's another wave to surf to promote your piss poor excuse for an Irish Anti-War Movement, with its well documented history of opportunism, lack of mutuality and hot air.

by chris murray - the unmanageables Sun May 21, 2006 16:19

The 33 men will appear before Kilmainham District court on Thursday 25th May.
re: some posts here, there was a strong sense of cooperation and solidarity all week
by members of different representaive groups. Pity would be if it descended publicly on
the wires into infighting and recrimination.

by Fintan Lane - Anti-War Ireland (and Irish Socialist Network) Sun May 21, 2006 16:26

Chris is absolutely correct.

There may be a need for groups and individuals to examine their responses, or otherwise, to the events of the past week, but it should be done in a constructive fashion. I believe there is such a need. However, recriminations are not helpful. The past week should have underlined the importance of unity and strength of purpose among anti-war, anti-racist, socialist and other progressive activists.

by Garrett Mullan - SP and Show Racism the RED Card Sun May 21, 2006 16:58 garrettmullan at gmail dot com

Fintan et al,

I assume that as the hunger strike has ended the meeting tonight will not go ahead. If the next court date is Thursday, there might be a case to ask people to turn out in numbers. That might not be necessary though as the charges are going to be dropped.

The men have all been bailed to the same address which is a positive for the campaign. There is still a case for the establishment of a Solidarity Campaign.

What do you think???

Garrett Mullan

by Fintan Lane Sun May 21, 2006 17:06

Tonight's meeting in the Silken Thomas was to be held after the vigil and, for obvious reasons, it won't be going ahead. It was organised on the assumption that the situation in St Patrick's would be ongoing. The circumstances have changed.

We do need to continue our solidarity with these men and I think a meeting should be convened. I think, over the next few days, we can make a move on this. Aside from practical solidarity, one thing in particular that we had planned to do should be done: a mass leafletting of the Liberties area to explain these men's cases and what was going on.

by Matt Sun May 21, 2006 17:35

Your contribution on the megaphone last night was extremely poorly timed and unwelcome. The gardai were responsible for escalating the situation and by blocking off the hunger strikers from contact with supporters outside the church, by their show of force, they prompted those 'children' to go up on a balcony and threaten to end their own lives. If the Gardai had not blocked off the entire street this would never have happened. The Gardai, like the media, showed a huge lack of compassion for the men inside. They also failed on several occasions to intervene when supporters of the men outside were attacked and verbally abused by those protesting against the hunger strikers. They even stood by as two drunken men screamed abuse at the two hunger strikers who were denied entry to the cathedral late on saturday night. Considering the hunger strikers were already in very weakened conditions and the two men were obviously drunk there is absolutely no excuse for the lack of a garda intervention-if the situation had been reversed they would have been very quick to act. When you consider that the gardai are more than willing protest about and to refuse to cooperate with the volunteer garda force that McDowell is introducing it makes it all the more hypocritical and frustrating for them to take such a hard line concerning a protest about a life and death situation.
It is also incredibly frustrating when people, such as Adult above, try to present the racists who were present at the cathedral as merely people with a different worldview. There was a very real threat of physical violence from some of the 'leaders' of this group who chose to hide themselves behind kids and local mothers. If the gardai had not been present(for all the good they did) there would have been violence outside the cathedral. Several of the supporters were threatened and abused without provocation, being told that they would have their heads kicked in or people would come knocking at their doors(and not for a nice cup of tea and a chat). These people DO have a different worldview-one which is extremely racist and fascist and which involves using physical violence to back up their extreme views. Knuckleheads, boneheads call em what you like, they are unlikely to change their views through reasoned debate and their presence winds up and encourages the people around them who, while protesting along side them, do not hold the same extreme ideological views that they do.
It is also interesting that many of the locals professed themselves to merely wanting access to their church once again. Good christians one and all the concepts of sanctuary, charity and love for your neighbour were obviously missing from their bible as was the story of the good samaritan. They also failed to make any connection between holding up a sign saying 'No More Room At The Inn' and their faith. Their arguments were filled with contradictions and irrelevancies...their leader was a man who has lived abroad for the last 15 years ie been an immigrant in both Britain and australia and yet finds no hypocrisy in trying to get immigrants kicked out of Ireland.

by anon Sun May 21, 2006 17:43

I again asked from statements from the refugee NGO's and all I got were copies of the 'Afghanistan is safe' article from the SIndo etc?? Just like with the Churchmen, GP and Phil Flynn etc all more concerned with ending the situation and putting the men back in their place then using the crisis/opportunity to help the men solve their problems.

by Observation Sun May 21, 2006 17:46

Bonehead BNPer on the right hand side above- cant even spell-fucking think- His piece of paper reads: ' vacancys' instead of vacancies. What a fucking moron! Smash the nazis.

by wondering Sun May 21, 2006 18:02

Just wondering when tou were designated spokesperson/ leader for the mens supporters. On a number of occassions you have made decisions for us. Such as 'wrapping up' the vigil and leaving people isolated at the Cathedral one evening. The meeting should have gone ahead i believe. Anyone else?

by Robbie McKay - Dublin Sun May 21, 2006 18:13

(An eye witness account).

The posters that were placed on O'connell Street calling for people to 'support the Hunger Strikers' were taken down yesterday afternoon. Apparently, they were put up illegally without any approval of the Authorities.

by matt Sun May 21, 2006 18:24

Don't see any point in trying to convince what became an increasingly hostile local area that the men were justified especially with leaflets which will be just chucked in the bin...the men are no longer in the liberties so it would be better to focus attention elsewhere as perhaps people will not yet have 'picked a side'.
I also think, obviously perhaps, that a non-hierarchical way of organising protests, meetings etc. would be much more productive and prevent the inevitable arguments that will arise from one person taking the lead all the time. I was present at the last meeting and was fairly surprised at the lack of discussion and opportunity for other ideas to be presented and the fact that when people did spoke up their ideas were usually shot down. I also think a lot of people resented being told what to do by loudspeaker when their opinion hadn't been asked and many were there as individuals or from various groups and hadn't signed up to be told what to do.

by anon Sun May 21, 2006 18:44

I was at the meeting as well and thought it very good. Eye of the beholder or are some people just looking for a whinge? I don't remember Fintan Lane ever presenting himself as the 'leader' of anything. I do remember him, though, trying his best to get other people doing stuff and mobilizing people for the vigils. Some people wil moan about just about anything.

by matt Sun May 21, 2006 19:05

Didn't mean to bitch just know from personal experience that one person taking charge can end up with people getting very disillusioned and frustrated especially myself. It was helpful in the short term to have someone who had ideas about what should be done trying to mobilize people but in the long term it would be better that it was done differently....many of the activists involved have a lot of experience in similar siuations and are well able to mobilize themselves(far more than me that's for sure) and have as knowhow as Fintan or anybody else who was put in charge...I'm not taking a swipe at Fintan-no matter who took charge I would say the same thing...it's better to give people the chance to express their views openly and a non-hierarchical format is the best way of doing that in my opinion.

by MichaelY - iawm - per cap Sun May 21, 2006 19:21

Having spoken on the phone to a number of people involved in supporting the hunger strikers, I would like to float an idea. How about the anti-war alliance, incorporating as it does a number of groups, including Anti-War Ireland, Cosantoiri, 2 Anarchist Collectives, the Unmanageables, ISN, IAWM, the Belfast Peace Collective and probably a couple of others that I surely forget and will be attacked for (lol - joke)....as well as many non-affiliated activists.....so how about the Alliance hosting a solidarity meeting with the Afghani hunger strikers on Wednesday 24th in the evening?
Open to all who support the hunger strikers due to appear in court the following Thursday. Before what anon calls the whinging and I call the ranting starts, Fintan said he supports the idea but cannot be there for work reasons and I don't propose anybody from the IAWM as a facilitator. As the last message says, a non-hierarchical, horizontal, race, age and gender inclusive meeting to see how we can move things forward.
Any takers? Venue to be announced in this space.

by krossie - wsm (personal capacity) Sun May 21, 2006 19:28

>Fintan: one thing in particular that we had planned to do should be done: a mass leafletting of the >Liberties area to explain these men's cases and what was going on.

We were also discussing this in WSM - I think its an excellent idea.
On Sunday there were some quite robust but good arguments with some of the locals.
I feel we need to do more of this and show real respect for their circumstances and the shit they have to deal with day to day from the cops and the state. Mass leafetting for sure and, possibly in a month or two, maybe even open public meetings. Political debate here on indymedia is fine and good but its time to get real debate going on the issue in communities in Dublin.

This may also entail actually listening to people over offering made to measure polemical "solutions". from what ever political perspective

Krossie

by krossie - (wsm personal capacity) Sun May 21, 2006 19:30

I would support Michaels idea of an open support group meeting - might even make it myself

krossie

by Curious Dubliner Sun May 21, 2006 19:53

How are going to explain this morning's Sunday Independent claim that one of the Taliban Afghan's a self-confessed serial rapist? And Murderer?
And another was a former Taliban commander that oversaw torture of prisoners?

I don't think that will go down to well with the people of the Liberties.

Hand them over to the US Embassy.

by Deirdre Clancy - Pitstop Ploughshares/Unmanageables Sun May 21, 2006 19:58

With regard to Ciaran Cuffe: I want to clarify that I realise you genuinely cared about the men and the situation they were in. I hope that McDowell is given the lashing he deserves about his handling of this situation. However, I do absolutely think that putting the cathedral under siege was a deeply misguided action that would have served only to increase the psychological distress of the men. I realise that the guards were in a difficult position and taking orders from a Minister for Justice who would have scapegoated them if anything went wrong. But cutting the men off in that fashion was inhumane in the extreme. This was obvious to many people who were there every day and who were in contact by phone with the men.

None of the supporters wanted them to die, and personally I was there to support asylum for them - because I didn't want them to die the horrific death that hunger strikers generally experience. But praising the guards was tantamount to praising the tactics they used, and those tactics were calculated to isolate them.

With regards to the anonymous posting later saying that Fintan was a self-appointed spokesperson - I do think if people are going to post up such comments they should a) find out the full story of how things developed and b) not be so cowardly as to put up a posting anonymously. If you're going to really stand by what you say, do it in the fullest sense.

It became apparent to a few people early in the week that vigils needed to be organised, particularly at night when more people were free. There was shamefully little visible mobilisation from the left and the anti-war movement, so Fintan took it upon himself to call a vigil at 6:30 every evening, and never claimed to represent anyone except Anti-War Ireland and to some degree the anti-war alliance that has been meeting in the Teacher's Club. Nobody from either of those groups had any problems with Fintan playing the organisational role he did, and several of us were involved in the organising also.

People were consulted before any announcements were made and invariably there were some stray people who didn't agree and came running up to complain. People were under no obligation to do what was suggested, including the person who had a bit of a rant last night and walked off calling him a 'bloody Trot' (he's not, but actually there were many trots there during the week and they comprised some of the most consistent support, so I wouldn't knock them on this issue). This person didn't agree with breaking up the vigil when suggested last night. Fintan took his lead from Rosanna, who felt there was no point in waiting around for the Archbishop (to take just one example). At other times, we went around consulting as many people as possible about decisions. It wasn't possible to talk to everyone, and it wasn't possible to please everyone.

Residents Against Racism did wonderful work. On the other hand, to get big numbers out it inevitably required organising commitment from anti-war and other activists. People didn't turn up entirely by accident.

That the plight of the hunger strikers is connected to the anti-war movement in general goes without saying. Of course we wanted to express solidarity. Individuals from the Unmanageables and other groups felt the same, and did sterling solidarity work. Nobody has a monopoly on solidarity with these men. The situation was too urgent for bickering about strategy.

I think we should all move on and see these men through their court and their asylum process, and ensure they get justice, especially in light of attempts to smear them in the media.

by anon Sun May 21, 2006 20:03

Can you tell me which country(s) recently let most of its terrorist out of jail(early) because 'their war was over'.

by Fintan Lane - Anti-War Ireland Sun May 21, 2006 20:31

I'm not really interested in responding to anonymous swipes, but let's be clear about a couple of things here. This was not one of those situations that develop over time and that one responds to following a long process of discussion and consultation. It was an immediate and desperate situation that we - anti-war activists - responded to as best we could. Our response wasn't perfect - how could it be? - but from the outset there was an attempt to broaden the numbers involved. Frankly, this was difficult over the first few evenings because so few people turned up for the vigils; it was mostly people we had worked with or networked with in recent times. There was a slow response from many groups and activists.

I never 'appointed' myself as 'leader' of anything, but I did end up in an organising role. Somebody had to do it and there nothing preventing anybody else getting stuck in and doing their bit. I was delighted as more and more people got involved, and cooperation developed. In fact, we were about to hold an open meeting that would have completely changed the composition of the organising group...and then events developed quickly, with the gardai moving in to remove the Afghans.

Today, before the hostile posts here, a number of the anti-war activists who built the initial 6.30pm vigils, decided to push forward with what was about to happen organically anyway - the creation of an open solidarity campaign. Hence, Michael's post above which I fully agree with. Why didn't it happen during the week? Because we were responding on the hoof and things were chaotic. However, that said, there was nothing stopping our critics from taking initiatives themselves, and many people did. There were great posters made, leaflets run off, etc. etc. Nobody 'owns' solidarity in a situation like this.

By the way, there was never a 'hierachical' meeting held. Where? How? I'm baffled by this comment unless the suggestion is that there shouldn't be a facilitator at meetings. In point of fact, because we were reacting/organising on the hoof, there was only one proper meeting held and that was hastily scrambled together at the end of a vigil.

With regard to decisions taken at vigils, I always consulted widely with people before announcing anything, but speaking to everybody was not possible. Anybody who was present on the vigils, with racists heckling and kids acting the eejit, will know that the tension and general atmosphere meant that a street meeting each time to decide our next move simply wasn't realistic.

Did everything run perfectly? Did I make the right call on every single occasion? Of course not. But such is the nature of situations that arise and have to be responded to quickly.

by Fintan Lane Sun May 21, 2006 20:52

And by the way, the mid morning vigils and the Saturday rally were called by RAR not by anti-war activists (who, however, did get stuck into building for them). In short, the solidarity expressed on the streets was a collective effort.

by Anarcho Dave Sun May 21, 2006 21:04

"By the way, there was never a 'hierachical' meeting held. Where? How? I'm baffled by this comment unless the suggestion is that there shouldn't be a facilitator at meetings. In point of fact, because we were reacting/organising on the hoof, there was only one proper meeting held and that was hastily scrambled together at the end of a vigil."

Fair enough Fintan - I do accept a lot of your points. But the political culture which a lot of people who were at that meeting in St Nick's are accustomed to pays a heavy service to the idea of democracy and non-hierarchical organising technics. This would exclude much of the sort of one way conversations that you engaged with people at that meeting. Facilitating a meeting means ensuring everyone gets to speak equally. If someone suggests an idea, it is not your role to dismiss it but to facilitate the meeting in addressing it etc. I'm sure you are aware of all of this, equally I'm sure you felt under pressure at the time and now I imagine you are just reeling with "WTF is their problem?" But you asked and I'm only answering. Best of luck!

by Residents Against Racism Sun May 21, 2006 21:54

RAR are requesting that people hold off on organising a meeting just yet until RAR has met all the Afgan men together as a group.

by MichaelY - iawm - per cap Sun May 21, 2006 22:01

RAR message appreciated. Let us know [publicly if possible] of plans so that we can co-ordinate

by Bob Sun May 21, 2006 23:44

Seems what is needed is a good debrief, prioritising ing how generally how grassroots goups can better respond in solidarity with others who confront the state with nonviolent direct action (on whatever issue) and specifically how to acompany these folks through the courts. Michael's suggestion of another popular front sounds like an attempt to herd us all together under the revolutioonary leadership of you know who. It may also be an attempt to undermine the position of RAR on this issue.

In my experience RAR operate in Dubln in a very effective, democratic, hands on solidarity with refugees kind of way. They are short on solidarity activists and have had their own history of fighting off takeovers from folks who think they (& every other campaign in Ireland) needs their leadership. So if your an activist who wants to prioritise this issue in your political life consider joining with RAR. Otherwise we're back in the cylcle of the mainstream media defines what's important, a coalition is set up and peters out after a while when the next big thang somes along determined by the mainstream media spotlight. Whether its the Mayo folks in prison, the Afghanis in the Cathedral the 5 Catholic Workers on trial in July, a squat under siege, prisoners taking action in their prison the network needs to come up with ways to prioritise solidarity when power is being directly confronted.

by Fintan Lane Sun May 21, 2006 23:52

I don't know who you are, but here's a trick to use at future meetings that you have a difficulty with: state it clearly there and then, and not after the event on the internet. To be honest, I would have been delighted and would have handed the role over to you in the blink of an eye.

With regard to the meeting, it was very clearly flagged as primarily an organising meeting to get the nuts and bolts work done for the vigils and for the Saturday rally. We also discussed how to extend the solidarity and, more to the point, we decided on further meetings after the vigils. The way the events in the cathedral unfolded made many things messy, not least meetings.

by JamesO'B. - WSM - Pesonal Capacity Mon May 22, 2006 01:32

Thanks to Fintan for his part during the week. Somebody has to be first to get going on the megaphone – important in this case to show that solidarity with asylum seekers was a match for racism - getting a venue for a meeting etc. Fintan played a valuable part as did many others, especially RAR.

It isn't over yet with the men in court next Thursday: There is a demo being held to support the Afgan Hunger Strikers on Thursday morning, 25th of May at 10 o clock at Kilmainhim Court. The men are appearing in court facing charges of forcible occupation. We are looking for supporters to get down there to show solidarity with the men.

Beyong that, thousands of asylum seekers are stuck in a penal system with a bleak future. Giving assistance isn't all that easy given the nature of the asylum system and the weakness of even mildly left views never mind socialist ones, but absolutely necessary. They are people with nothing, who've lost so much, and have remained good people having gone through it all. It's been the most depressing week: while desperate men starved repeatedly hearing well fed, well off people whose biggest problem is traffic on the rock road saying things like "let them die". Clearly most of them don't have a clue what asylum seekers experience, but it's still depressing to see them swallow the state line so completely. They don't have any excuses.

by CFT Mon May 22, 2006 01:45

Isn't there some otstanding issues here?

Did all or any of the asylum seekers end their hunger strikes?

If they did, why?

Was the venue bigger than the protest?

by moi Mon May 22, 2006 10:11

The sniping that's going on here is pointless, or at least I don't see what the point behind it is. Is this what some people really want to focus on? Whether they were happy with such and such a meeting? A lot of good work was done - is that not recognised?

The bigger picture is what's important. There was a siege underway and now these men may be dragged through the courts. RAR have asked people to hold off on a solidarity campaign for the moment but, when they give the word, we need to get to work on this again.

They haven't gone away, you know.

by proc-see Mon May 22, 2006 14:57

Any news from the hospitals?

Anything

At all?

by Cian Mon May 22, 2006 15:17

Fair play to Fintan for calling together that meeting on Thursday night. An organising meeting was long over due by then. The real question we should be asking ourselves is why none of the rest of us took an initiative to organise a meeting before then.