Pro-choice rally faces off counter demonstration at Four Courts

by Bobot Fri May 11, 2007 20:43

Margaret: "Free abortion services where there is medical need, extreme circumstances, yes. Free abortion where the mother and her partner aren't ready or willing to accept the consequences of what is a fairly well known side effect of having sex? I don't think so."

Medical need, contraceptive failure, rape, extreme economic/social pressures... there are any number of valid reasons why a woman may be seeking an abortion. In an imperfect society this has always been and will continue to be the case. How does one person judge another person's "extreme circumstances"? In times of crisis, women cannot be expected to have to prove anything, nor should they have to.

At the moment the only provision we have for Irish women is to bundle them off to England. It causes unneccesary trauma, attaches excessive stigma and enhances post-abortion distress whatever the reasoning behind having to travel in the first place.

The situation as it stands is unrealistic. It discriminates against young women, poor women, those in care, refugees, women in controlling/ violent relationships to name but a few. It leads to a complex constitutional and legislative reality and results in cases like those of "X", "C" and "D" arising. The only possible solution is to provide free, safe and legal abortion on demand. (In vital conjunction with proper care and counselling and the development of the other services mentioned before).

Margaret: "We need to change the support that's there, and we need to change the attitudes towards women and motherhood, and indeed men as fathers. trying to sweep it under the carpet and sneaking off to Britain doesn't fix that. It's a tempting quick fix when under pressure, but a quick fix is rarely a good fix. Neither is a bunch of god bothering fanatics with placards."

Agreed

I am writing now in an absolutely personal capacity.

It is my personal belief that if Ireland could take it's head out of the sand in relation to sex, contraception and abortion and provide proper support and services (including non-profit abortion) to women in crisis, and before they reach that crisis, the rate of abortion for Irish women would decrease, not increase.

Call me crazy but, if limiting (not prohibiting - that clearly doesn't work) truly unnecessary abortion were a joint aim of people in the (non-nuts)"pro-life" and "pro-choice" lobbies, then, if religion stayed out of it, there could be some ways in which we could unite around this issue. Changing attitudes to women, motherhood and fatherhood would seem to be an obvious starting point.

Food for thought for the future perhaps.

by Margaret, Dublin Thu May 10, 2007 13:16

Margaret: "But, a question for the pro-choicers, would you expect me to PAY for it? If so many people here are opposed to abortion, why would the state make them pay fto support something they see as wrong? If the brits want to pay for it, that's their business."

Bobot: There is a whole range of ways in which the govermnent is ignoring the needs of women - particularly in relation to maternity services, childcare and support for mothers. It is vital that these services are developed in conjunction with the proper sex and contraceptive education and provision of non-directive pregnancy counselling and free abortion on demand.

Margaret replies:
I have no argument with you there, in fact i'd go further and say that paternal leave should also be brought in, so that the men can take some of the burden off the mothers. for the first 6 months I almost felt like a single mother, but my husband couldn't take the time off work and pay the bills.

Bobot: Abortion services must be provided for free in this country, as we must, under all costs, avoid a situation where people are profiteering from or promoting abortion.
Exporting the problem does no-one any good.

Margaret replies:
This is where we probably disagree, depending on your criteria for an abortion. Free abortion services where there is medical need, extreme circumstances, yes.
Free abortion where the mother and her partner aren't ready or willing to accept the consequences of what is a fairly well known side effect of having sex? I don't think so.
We need to change the support that's there, and we need to change the attitudes towards women and motherhood, and indeed men as fathers. trying to sweep it under the carpet and sneaking off to Britain doesn't fix that. It's a tempting quick fix when under pressure, but a quick fix is rarely a good fix. Neither is a bunch of god bothering fanatics with placards.

On a final note, glad to see the judge allow Miss D to travel and slam the HSE for holding her prisoner.

by Kieran O'Sullivan - Personal Capacity Thu May 10, 2007 11:48

Firstly the idea that anti-abortion groups would bring their photos to the court is pity disgusting.

However it does seem that the Catholic Church has had nothing to say on this. I haven’t seen any statement from them. I was in school when the X case was going through the courts and there was a much stronger anti-abortion mood at the time. It does seem that the catholic right have lost their way over the past few years, I would put this down to their simplistic world view "abortion is wrong!", "condoms are evil!", etc and also to the behaviour of the church as an organization.

This does bring a question to mind where does the "Catholic Right" go from here. There is a group called LOVE (Let Our Voices Emerge) which aledges that the abuse was not as bad as we are told. They have not gotten very far. So it seems that "Catholic Right" hopes for the "it wasn't as bad as all that" argument are not going anywhere.

Note: I am not accusing LOVE of being involved in any kind of right wing campaign I accept that they mean what they say I simply do not agree with their conclusions.

There is a worrying development with the Iona Institute (Catholic Right Wing Think Thank). However I can't see that really going anywhere as nobody is going to tolerate being told that they can't use condoms. David Quinn is a very able debater but I doubt that he will be able to push this kind of agenda very far. Justin Barrett does not really have any support.

If only more politicians would take up the abortion issue and stop hiding behind the "go to England" solution Ireland might finally get this issue solved.

PS The term "pro-life" is very curious some of these people are in favor of the death penalty and the war in Iraq.

by ? Wed May 09, 2007 17:36

that's what i thought on thursday - it would be an in and out case - of course she should be allowed go. the fact that it could drag on this long shows the insanity of the legal situation in ireland. rest assured there will be more cases like this one unless we sort it out once and for all. legislating for the x and c cases is the minimum that should happen.

by wise Wed May 09, 2007 16:51

The outcome of this case was never in any doubt
which is why the pro-lifers, pro-choicers, no-choicers and nutcases in general have all made such collective asses of themselves.
God save Ireland from such people.

by Starstruck - Pro-Choice Wed May 09, 2007 16:30

Numbers mobilised quickly to counter the anti-choice demonstarators (whose spokesman was,of course,a man)
Soon they were outnumbered and they left swifly once the correct verdict in the case was delivered.
Fair play to all who came down to counteract these lunatics.

by DocOc Wed May 09, 2007 13:45

So, deciding factors in choosing an abortion should be:

a) is the child wanted/loved?
b) is the child handicapped?
c) will the child have 'quality of life'?
d) will the mother have 'quality of life'?
e) is it fair to all concerned?

What a shallow, heartless world we live in.

by Chekov Wed May 09, 2007 13:39

Reports just arriving from the four courts, where a judgement is expected in the next short while, that the anti-choice brigade have mobilised in large numbers to wave their placards and grisly photographs and demand that this young girl be forced to act as a human incubator of what is in effect a corpse. Pro-choice campaigners have called for supporters to come to the four courts to show support for this young girl - anybody who can make it at all.

by JarJarBlanks Wed May 09, 2007 13:26

A situation like this is a perfect example as to why women should be allowed the right to choose, this poor girl wanted her child, she wanted to hold and to love it but instead all she gets is the knowledge that it will die within a matter of days.

Is that fair? Is it fair to force a child, which Ms. D essentially is, to go through the whole birthing precedure only to have nothing to show for nine months of childbearing life?

This child is not even going to live for 3 days outside the womb, and which the disorder it has it is going to have not much quality of life. Is it fair to put a baby through that?

Yes I can fully understand the pro-lifers view, lets make the girl suffer for she hath befouled herself in the face of god and then lets have the babby born only to fill it full of tubes and pipes and force it to hang on to the last vestige of life.

thats just an ace idea, I would hate to think how you would react if it was someone who dares suggest an abortion might be the best idea due to social circumstance or age.

by sc Wed May 09, 2007 13:02

Dot. we're on different hymnsheets.
But since you ask - Choice lies? -where to begin...
How about this - Your whole agenda is a lie.
You claim to be pro-woman but in reality you bully the most defenceless females - the unborn.
You are anti-man because you bully the most defenceless males - the unborn.
Tell me - when does an unborn become a woman - medical facts only please -no wordplay.
On second thoughts don't bother!
When does termination become killing (murder implies intent)?
When will you stop using vulnerable seventeen year olds to promote you anti-life policies?
As for Miss. D. welcoming your so-called support. She is still a minor. You shouldn't be let near her.
(neither should the pro-lifers).

by sho Wed May 09, 2007 12:19

"There are none so blind as those who will not see.
If you blind your senses how can you make an informed choice?"

the point was that i didn't watch that horrendous video, yet i knew that abortion was not the right choice for me. the point was that you do not need to be grotesque and manipulative, you just need to trust women, support them and give them impartial information.

i was fifteen years old, with a growing distrust of religion. while i was sure that i had some problems with abortion, i was also sure that there was something wrong with young impressionable people being told to watch an emotive propaganda video of it and therefore form our opinions of it. it was this incident that made me strongly pro-choice. it was also the end of any residual respect i might have had for religious organisation. well done youth defense.

there is something called consent that you might want to do some research into.

it means that while i am strongly anti-war, i do not wish to bring videos and pictures of the horrors of it into our schools and onto our streets, shoving them in the faces of old and young alike. oblivious to whether or not they have consented to see them.

i am not talking about censorship, you are free to make whatever you want to make. but advertise it as the religious propaganda it is, and allow people to make a choice whether they wish to see it or not.

"I will listen to and watch all the pro-choice 'information'. I like to think I am informed
Again, what are you afraid of?"

i think you might be confused - i have since looked at plenty of the propaganda produced by youth defense etc. - when i was in a position to consent to looking at these. i find it very deceptive and ugly. while there is a lot of money behind it and some very pretty foetus pictures, i also (coming from a scientific background and having studied some embryology) found much of it factually distorted for very obvious reasons to fit an agenda.

i am afraid of religious nutcases

happy?

by Dorothy Gale Wed May 09, 2007 12:07

Choice are not butting in, Choice are supporting Miss D. Miss D has expressed her gratitude to Choice for the support we have given her so far. Do you think she appreciates the intervention of the "lifers" with their gruesome placards?

You havent identified any lies on the part of Choice. Your comment is just gratuitously abusive.

by sc Wed May 09, 2007 11:54

H., it is nonsense like yours that gives that pro-choice lobby a name for
half-truths and self-delusion.
Sho is obviously capable of making her point, with grace, but you feel you have to butt in.
You believe she is somehow incapable.
What are YOU afraid of?

by bobot - choice ireland - pers cap Wed May 09, 2007 11:26

"But, a question for the pro-choicers, would you expect me to PAY for it? If so many people here are opposed to abortion, why would the state make them pay fto support something they see as wrong? If the brits want to pay for it, that's their business."

There is a whole range of ways in which the govermnent is ignoring the needs of women - particularly in relation to maternity services, childcare and support for mothers. It is vital that these services are developed in conjunction with the proper sex and contraceptive education and provision of non-directive pregnancy counselling and free abortion on demand.

If people hold a "pro-life" position, they can be reassured that by developing these servies they will be making it easier for women to choose life.

Abortion services must be provided for free in this country, as we must, under all costs, avoid a situation where people are profiteering from or promoting abortion.

Exporting the problem does no-one any good.

by H. - Choice Ireland, pers cap Wed May 09, 2007 11:09

sc,

Lay off, Sho knows a lot about the different options. She said she didn't watch the video because it was anti-choice propoganda. It was not an informed, medically neutral presentation of the facts. Everybody knows that abortion is not an easy option to take. Neither is having a child, and that is not always the right decision to make for a woman. Again, Choice Ireland is a PRO-CHOICE group, that includes us supporting women with whatever choice they make. I think it is a shame that you want to take away their right to make an informed choice by showing them one-sided, anti-choice videos.

by sc Wed May 09, 2007 11:00

"this comes from someone who refused to watch the silent scream "
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
If you blind your senses how can you make an informed choice?
I will listen to and watch all the pro-choice 'information'. I like to think I am informed
Again, what are you afraid of?

by Margaret, Dublin Wed May 09, 2007 10:50

I wonder if some people aren't using this as a platform?

The reported behaviour of the pro-lifers at the court disgusts me. It is extremism. Likewise, the attempt to turn thisspecific case , where the child is not viable, into a cause celebre for thosewho would champion abortion as an option for a healthy child in the womb.
I support Miss D in her sad circumstances. She wanted to have this baby, she had bought stuff in preparation, and then found out she won't get to feed it, or hold it. She has been treated shamefully by the state, who are also acting as if the floodgates for abortion in Ireland were about to burst, and they have to bully this girl to prevent it. It's not the case, this case will be fought on the specifics, and if
Miss D gets to end her pregnancy, that ruling will only be useful to other women in similar cases.

I am personally opposed to abortion on demand, but, in some cicrumtances, such as medical necessity, or carrying a child with no chance of survival, an absolute ban would be immoral.
However, I recognise, and if a woman chooses to have an abortion simply because the child is inconveneient and she sees it as an intruder in her body (violating her integrity), it would be futile for me to try to stop her.
But, a question for the pro-choicers, would you expect me to PAY for it? If so many people here are opposed to abortion, why would the state make them pay fto support something they see as wrong? If the brits want to pay for it, that's their business.

I don't mean this in relation to Miss D, I'd gladly throw money in the hat if it came to a whip round for her to travel, although I think in her case, the doctors here should do the job.

by sho Wed May 09, 2007 10:33

"If pro-choice is really interested in giving
full information on abortion why are they against pictures of abortion, movies etc?"

because it is anti-abortion propaganda, because it is backed and manipulated by a religious agenda.

there is no such thing as pro-abortion propaganda, because no-one loves abortions.

the point is that sometimes they are necassary. that is all what the pro-choice movement is trying to say. religious people have no right to influence a woman or to decide for her.

this comes from someone who refused to watch the silent scream at school when i was fifteen, and decided on single motherhood against abortion ten years later.

women will make their own choices anyway.

religious agendas only hurt us.

by sc Wed May 09, 2007 10:20

"pictures do not tell anything like the full story"
-no, but they are part of the full story. If pro-choice is really interested in giving
full information on abortion why are they against pictures of abortion, movies etc?
For the record - I do not agree with YD practise of gruesome placards but pictures
have a place in leaflets, adult-rated films etc.
What is stopping pro-choice from giving such info. to the public?
What are you afraid of?
I am fully aware of the reality of childbirth. I've seen all the pictures.
Why is abortion information censored by pro-choice?
Isn't the real reason the fact that people could bring all of their senses to bear on
their choice and in that case would probaly decide against abortion?
Don't fool yourself, sho, you are as uncomfortable with the reality of abortion as any
normal human being.

by sho Wed May 09, 2007 10:00

so maybe i should get some pictures of anencephalic babies, blow them up to A1 size and parade them up and down outside the 4courts. you're on the internet. google that reality.

or maybe i should get the most gruesome childbirth pictures i can find to show women the reality of ripping and tearing and cutting screaming and blood related to childbirth - just so they can be informed...

in fact i think that women should be informed of the reality of childbirth and abortion as provided by the medical establishment. because neither is pretty. the RAG forum last monday evening was a beautiful example of how women can be totally upset by what they had to go through, yet absolutely pro-choice.

gruesome pictures do not tell anything like the full story. they are used by youth defence and related madsers to traumatise and control women. not to try to inform them.

i really hope you are totally misled not totally cynical.

ps- choice ireland calls for proper impartial crisis pregnancy councelling to help women make their own informed decisions about their choices in crisis pregnancy situations.
it also endorses proper sex education, including real information about contraception and abortion so that women are able to form their own opinions before they are affected by them.

youth defence videos and anti-choice agendas have no place in such education.

by Charles Willard II Wed May 09, 2007 09:53

The plight of Miss D has been scrutinised in learned detail and and accordance with a singularly Irish perspective. In the matter of learned detail it is a fascinating irony to find that the father of the foetus is immersed in obscurity.

One supposes this reticence speaks, inter alia, of a perception of him as the sperm that bred this horribly deformed legal matter.

Meanwhile, the mother of Miss D received learned, ceremonial credibility from the court, as if the sanctity and mystic of her womb was of greater relevance than the facts related to the abysmal care to which Miss D was accustomed. How telling, indeed, that the learned judge and counsel for Miss D were assiduous in innoculating from the record her evidence related to that pathology.

A pathology that resonates within their deformed and diseased attitude towards the best interests of this tragic young COUPLE. Two people who with the grace of God will someday be blessed with healthy well-loved children.

by sc Wed May 09, 2007 09:18

"They are seen with their gruesome placards on our streets"
Unfortunately Irish society has sterilised and sanitised the reality of abortion.
Whilst RTE will show a pro-choice propaganda film on the life of Margaret Sanger
it refuses to show the reality of even one abortion. Other foreign broadcasters
have shown the likes of 'The Silent Scream" but our media wants to keep the Irish
in ignorance. So much for making an informed choice.
Has the pro-information, pro-choice lobby ever informed a single woman of the full reality of
abortion? Have they ever helped her to make a fully-informed choice?
Fear of the truth is a sure sign of an unjust cause.
The truth shall set you free.

by Live and let... Wed May 09, 2007 08:29

H. the answer to your question,

"Why on earth would the legislators and judiciary, or 'the people of Ireland' have the right to decide this for her? You do realise she's a person, right? You do get that this is real?"

Because that there is another human being involved. This is real alright. The stakes for the unborn being particularly high.

by blogger - choice ireland Wed May 09, 2007 00:28 choiceireland at gmail dot com

The high court is due to decide Miss D's fate tomorrow (Saturday 9th May) at 2pm. Pro-choice rally in support of Miss D outside the Four Courts from 1.30pm.

There was a counter-demonstration of anti-choice extremists present at Monday's rally, see http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82420

Miss D has said she is glad of everyone's support. She bravely walked past the callously-displayed anti-abortion placards saying, "I don't care what they think".

Their presence on Monday just shows who the "pro-lifers" really are: anti-woman extremists, who think that even a foetus that will not live has an equal right to life as a young woman. It shows that even in the most straight-forward cases of the need for abortion, one can never argue logic with these people. No sane person could countenance forcing Miss D to go through with the trauma of pregnancy and birth when she clearly wants her agony to end.

The people of Ireland are far-and-away supportive of Miss D. Though some of them don't know it, the people of Ireland are far-and-away Pro-Choice. They know, as Choice Ireland knows, that abortion is a terrible thing to have to go through. It is a terrible choice to have to make. But sometimes it is the only choice. And, given proper access to impartial information and counselling, only the woman involved can decide when she needs to have an abortion. No-one, neither church nor state, has the right to interfere.

Long after they should have disappeared into the woodwork, the anti-choice element continues to make its presence felt in Ireland. They are seen with their gruesome placards on our streets, they are read in letters columns in our newspapers. They are present here and there throughout society in the guise of the social worker who would report Miss D to the gardai, the homeless-worker who would kick women out of hostels for having condoms, the teacher who would show young people pro-foetus bloodied propaganda and the pregnancy “counsellor” who would lie to young women about the process and after-effects of abortion. But though these people have a big voice, they have a small following. They are religious, anti-sex, anti-contraceptive, anti-choice fundamentalists. Let us hope their voice begins to be heard in Ireland for what it really is, and ignored.

Miss D has made her choice. Let her be. Let her go.

We in Choice Ireland are saddened that this case had to come to pass. Let there be no more cases like this. Let us stop exporting the problems of our young women. Let us stop traumatising and stigmatising them. We have already enshrined the "right to travel" for abortions in our constitution. Now let us break free from the pervasive influence of religious fanatics, let us end the hypocrisy and see that Irish women have the "right not to travel" for abortions.

Free, safe, legal abortions in Ireland now.

by W Tue May 08, 2007 18:55

"Feminist theorists for decades (if not centuries) have been divided over the issue of abortion. It is not, and has never been, at the centre of any mass feminist movement."

Bull. It has been at the centre of the feminist movement in the US for at least the last 25 years (probably longer than that even, but that's as far as my memory goes back). Nor is it a divisive issue in American feminism. Don't assume that Catholic Ireland's experience is typical everywhere else.

by Arise Tue May 08, 2007 16:39

Response to feminist:

‘Yet the reality of the situation is that these are women, who may be in control of their bodies and use them at will, who are essentially economic slaves of male hierarchial society’
I agree with this completely, that is why we also fight for broader issues surrounding choice, not just the right to have an abortion, but the right to free childcare etc.. But are you suggesting that if women had all these things that there would be no woman looking for an abortion. This is completely against all feminist principals. Women who choose not to be mothers should not be judged for choosing not to have a baby. Women are no less women if they no not want to rear a family. So the fact is even in a perfect world, women still need access to abortion.

‘ If a woman is truly independant and autonomous then she has a choice’
Not if abortion isn’t one of them.

‘Women are not going to be free and are not going to control their own bodies until there is true gender equality and proper financial assistance to those that want to have children, and adequate support for those who choose not to have children.’
We are in complete agreement here as well, these are completely inkeeping with choice Irelands stance.

Response to Depressed and Sickened:

‘Under the Irish constitution the unborn have the same right to life as the mother’
That doesn’t make it right. The law and the constitution isn’t infallible.

‘This is not an isolated issue affecting just one individual’
I agree the hypocrisy of the Irish government that forces women to travel for an abortion means that it affects thousands every year. However when it comes down to it, this case is about one girl, who is brave enough to take on the state.

‘However this is an issue of such delicacy that it must be a collective decision to taken by the people of Ireland, our legislators and our judicary.’
Eh, No. If I was pregnant in the morning, call me crazy, but I reckon I don’t want to consult with the entire population of Ireland about it. I have this thing where I like to control my own body.

‘As I said before it will not be reached by two opposing mobs screaming insults at eachother.’
This didn’t happen. Let’s stop these lies now.

As for Jacob Reynolds
‘Abortion should be mandatory for underage teenage pregnancies.’
Yikes, that is a terrifying statement one I’m not even going to try and touch. Someone else can tackle that I’ve not the energy.

by from Leitrim Tue May 08, 2007 16:23

Family and Life advert now in cinemas, preview to "Saintly Spidey".
Rang advertising standard authorities who have recieved other calls, they say they can do nothing about it because it is "not a commercial advert, they are not selling a service or a product".

by H. Tue May 08, 2007 15:35

"As I said before it will not be reached by two opposing mobs screaming insults at each other."

Sickened, I refer you to my comment a few posts above, which you must not have seen. One group are there on a solidarity action in support of Miss D, for which she is grateful.

The other group are truly indecent examples of human beings, and what they are trying to do is disgusting.

One group there to support her, the other there only to cause indefensible distress. Do you get it?

by Depressed and sickened Tue May 08, 2007 15:29

"When people respect the decisions made by women (especially in relation to their OWN bodies) we will have women's liberation."

If a woman decides to have an abortion she is deciding what do with her own body but in so doing she is deny the baby, another human beings, any right to his/her bodily integrity.

So it is not suprising therefore that many people do not believe that in the case of abortion the woman has the right to make decisions about her own body - because her right to do as she wishes leads to the death of another person who presumably given the chance to voice their opinion would oppose her decision.

I personally do not believe society can practically prevent women from having abortions without jailing thousands upon thousands of women and their accomplaces - i believe it is hypocritical to ban abortion in Ireland yet it is easily available abroad.

But the Irish people cannot be forced to accept the legality of abortion in Ireland against their will.

That is why it must be decided by the judicary who have been appointed by our democratically elected legislators or by the democratic will of the Irish people.

It cannot be decided by self-serving extremists either pro-choice or pro-life.

by H. Tue May 08, 2007 15:23

"However this is an issue of such delicacy that it must be a collective decision to taken by the people of Ireland, our legislators and our judicary."

No, it must be the decision of the woman in question. Why on earth would the legislators and judiciary, or 'the people of Ireland' have the right to decide this for her? You do realise she's a person, right? You do get that this is real?

by Depressed and sickened Tue May 08, 2007 15:14

Come back to earth for a moment.

This child (she is 17 so legally she is not an adult) is pregnant (under the Irish constitution the unborn have the same right to life as the mother).

This is not an isolated issue affecting just one individual - it affects all of Irish society.

This issue of whether a woman has a right to choose or whether the right to life of the unborn is protected in all circumstances goes to the heart of our society.

Personally I do not believe it will be resolved justly. I think that is an impossibility.

I do not agree with abortion but I do not believe it practically possible or desirable to prevent women from having abortions if they so choose.

However this is an issue of such delicacy that it must be a collective decision to taken by the people of Ireland, our legislators and our judicary.

The lives of individual mothers and individual unborn babies should not be at the mercy of subjective decisions.

We can never achieve an objective value - but the collective will of the nation is as close as we can come to such a thing.

As I said before it will not be reached by two opposing mobs screaming insults at eachother.

by Beatrice Tue May 08, 2007 15:12

"Womens liberation will come If people stop focussing on womens bodies and
start foccusing on our achievemnets,our intellect and our intelligence."

When do you think a woman looses the intelligence to decide when she is in the healthiest happiest position to be pregnant?!

When people respect the decisions made by women (especially in relation to their OWN bodies) we will have women's liberation.
Miss D has made a highly informed decision (doctors, social workers, solicitors) as to what she wishes for her body and to not support that is to deny that women can make educated choices for their own lives.

by Feminist Tue May 08, 2007 15:11

Control over a women's body will count for nothing if a women does not have the economic and societal freedom to independantly make up her own mind as regards to what to do with her body.

The same arguement that you made above can be made in favour of prostitution - its women in 'control of their own bodies'.
Yet the reality of the situation is that these are women, who may be in control of their bodies and use them at will, who are essentially economic slaves of male hierarchial society, and more often than not they are involved in prostitution as a means of economic survival - that is not choice. It is not female autonomy or women truly choosing what they want to do with their bodies in the same sense that abortion is not going to free women of financial and societal constraints and inequality.

Having freedom of your body does not make you free to make choices that are independant of the social and economic constraints that the male dominated world places on women. If a woman is truly independant and autonomous then she has a choice - if she has the option of having children without worrying of finances, if she has the option to stay working or to stay at home and be neither judged nor forced by society into either, if she is paid the same as her male counterparts - then she has a choice. However, if, as is the case in the majority of abortions in the UK, she is doing it for financial or social reasons as opposed to what she wants it is not, and will never be, completely her choice.

Women are not going to be free and are not going to control their own bodies until there is true gender equality and proper financial assistance to those that want to have children, and adequate support for those who choose not to have children.

by H. Tue May 08, 2007 15:07

I agree with Arise.

It seems silly to me that the person above claims that reproductive rights are not a feminist issue because they don't fit in to any of her/his one-line definitions of the goals of the "three waves of feminism". How absurdly academic! What an odd way to classify what is and isn't a feminist issue! The right for a woman to have control over her own body, a woman's right to choose, is of course a feminist issue. Don't define my feminism by your academic one-liners, it doesn't fit.

by Arise Tue May 08, 2007 14:45

'Let the courts, our legislators and the mature Irish electorate decide - their decisions for good or ill should settle the issue.'

Well unfortunately they will decide what a woman wants to do with her body. Your distorting the pro-choice side here.
We don't want to decide for her, we want to support her deciding for herself. Unlike the anti-choice side. Thats the difference.

And to the person who argued that abortion is not a feminist issue, I have to disagree.

Control over your own bodyis central to a womans liberation. Without this then women will never have equal oppertunity.
Surely that is as feminist as it gets. Pro Choice means exactly that. Supporting a womans choice and to ensure that the
opperunity to avail of all her choices is there for her, weather that be termination, raising a child or putting a child up for adoption.

by H. Tue May 08, 2007 14:44

Juvenile,

Choice Ireland have been outside the courts every day of Miss D's trial, in support of her. She knows this and has expressed great gratitude for this support. The idea that of comparing us with the despicable anti-lifers who turned up to bully and abuse Miss D is ridiculous. This is not "two groups of extremists". One is a group on a solidarity action whose presence is a support for Miss D. The other is a group of fanatical catholics who call are calling her a murderer. It is important that Miss D sees that the has support from people.

As to the poster who reckons the group with large picture of foetuses have support from the public, are you deranged? What you are doing is cruel and horrific.

Juvenile should know that it is important to Miss D to see that she has support, and it is even more important that people show up in support for her when a group of fanatics are there calling her decision not to continue with the pregnancy murder. I think it's appalling that they showed up to do this to her.

by Elisa O'D Tue May 08, 2007 14:33

"No WE can’t and please as a pro lifers don’t include yourself in WE. So like I say on every thread. GO AWAY ELISA."

I have no idea who you are but you are consistently rude to me on indymedia so can you please stop. This is an open publishing site I have as much reason to be write as you. By 'we' I meant us writing on indymedia and that includes pro-lifers as well as pro choicers.Please dont tell me to go away again,its really rude and is extremely ignorant as It seems you dont want to engage in any sort of discussion on this important issue.If you dont want to engage in disscussion why on earth are you contributing to a disscussion site?!

As someone who is pro life I dont believe I am anti women. I would consider myself to be very feminist.I cannot see how making abortion legal will lift the racial,class and social prejudices that women face in Ireland and all around the world. Womens liberation will not come by legalising an opertaion to terminate a baby/foetus/cells/ whatever you want to call it. Womens liberation will come If people stop focussing on womens bodies and start foccusing on our achievemnets,our intellect and our intelligence.

"The reason we will not use that term is because it implies that pro-choicers are anti-life and of course this is no true."

Well your term anti women implies that we who dont believe in abortion dont want women to be equal to men or dont believe in womens rights and are somewhat 'pro men' I assure you I dont believe in any of these.I strongly believe in womens liberation. I just dont believe in killing an innocent baby.I believe in the right of life.

Saying that,I do believe that as this baby has already been sentenced to death that the most humane option for mother and daughter would be to termiante the pregnancy. I would like to see the law changed so that these sensitive cases can be dealt within the Irish health system.
Bets of luck to miss D.

by Depressed and sickened Tue May 08, 2007 14:20

Such a divisive issue as abortion is not going to be solved by idiots from the pro-choice and pro-life screaming at eachother for their own entertainment and self-righteous satisfaction.
I am sickened that both the plight of mothers who are in a desperate situation because of unplanned or unwanted pregnancies and the plight of their babies who face a gruesome end is cheapened by professional cat calling.

Shame on you both.

Let the courts, our legislators and the mature Irish electorate decide - their decisions for good or ill should settle the issue.

Not two gangs of extremists.

by Sharon D. Tue May 08, 2007 14:17

"pro-lifers have just as much right to protest as pro-choicers. Don't act outraged because,like you, they are using their right to protest."

And anybody has a right to express disgust at how they chose to use that right.

Nobody is questioning their right to protest, people are simply expressing abhorence at how they have chosen to use that right and drawing the obvious inferences from it - that they are hate-filled fanatics who think nothing of forcing a young woman to carry a corpse around in her womb for 9 months and call this young woman a murderer for wanting to end the agony sooner rather than later.

I respect their right to protest, do you respect my right to express disgust at how they choose to use that right?

by Feminist Tue May 08, 2007 14:11

Abortion is not a feminist issue - nor has it ever entered the academic and philopsophical mainstream as a component of feminist thought. THe lines are perhaps blurred for some given that some theoretical feminist are, and traditionally have been, involved in pro-choice movements around the world.

From a personal stance, I am very pro-choice. I take issue with the term 'anti-woman' being bandied round and the presumption that abortion is a feminist issue. I do not agree with the 'pro-life' or more accurately anti-choice movement, however, to label them anti-woman is ludicrous. It is yet again, the hijacking of the abortion issue and placing it within a false feminist agenda.

Feminist theorists for decades (if not centuries) have been divided over the issue of abortion. It is not, and has never been, at the centre of any mass feminist movement. First wave feminism fought for the right to vote, second wave feminism fought for contraception, third wave feminist fought for (and is still fighting for) equal treatment, equal pay and an end to gender-based poverty.

In essence abortion is not the key to equal rights for women, it is now and for probably as long as we know it, legal or not, a symptom of the suppression of women.
For economic reasons women may choose to have an abortion - but is it really their choice if the state won't provide adequate support for women to allow them to be mothers? Is it really a choice if women cannot afford a pregnancy as opposed to not wanting to be pregnant? Women need genuine economic choice and freedom, economics, in an ideal world, should not be a reason why a woman would choose an abortion. The state should be properly funding women who want and choose to have children as opposed to those who have the priviledge to afford them.

Fixing a symptom and not the root cause of gender inequality does not further the feminist flight, more things in our society needs to change than some out-dated law.

by Stev Tue May 08, 2007 14:10

....pro-lifers have just as much right to protest as pro-choicers. Don't act outraged because,like you, they are using their right to protest.
(FTR, I am pro-life, but I would let Miss. D abort)

by M - Choice Ireland Tue May 08, 2007 13:53

I am stunned that you think you were there supporting miss D and her baby, I think you may be a little confused.
Miss D wants to have an abortion, you upset her so much she was afraid to walk into the court. We were asked by her mother to protect her from you and your twisted friends.
Her child will never survive outside of her so pretending you can be it's voice is pretty sick if you ask me.

She is carrying around a foetus with a life expectency of a few days.
She has to feel it move and carry it with her knowing it will never live.
That is the closest thing to torture I can think of.
She is 17 years old!
It is traumatic enough for her without you fruitloops turing up and upsetting her at a time when she needs support.
I don't know how you can live with yourself and I hope you will some day be ashamed of yourself for bullying a traumatised young woman when she is at her most vulnerable.
Shame on you!

by Sharon D. Tue May 08, 2007 12:57

"just because you don't agree with their views! That is simply outrageous. "

That's obviously not what I said. It's pretty dumb to distort what somebody says when their words are there in black and white on the page above you.

You and your god-bothering friends brought kids along in the hope that they would be filmed, so you could complain about this. You're using your poor wee kiddies as political footballs. That's why I think ye are bad parents and I suspect that such a cold and cynical attitude towards your children would also be reflected in other aspects of your parenting. The social services should certainly have a look.

by Arise Tue May 08, 2007 12:56

Elisa
‘Can we use the term pro life from now on’
No WE can’t and please as a pro lifers don’t include yourself in WE. The reason we will not use that term is because it implies that pro-choicers are anti-life and of course this is no true.

‘pro choice will pray for the the most compassionate,humane and most positive outcome for Miss D whatever the descision.’
To be honest I don’t think there will be much praying going on, in the pro-choice camp. And the most positive outcome in the case is the outcome Miss D wants, i.e. not what the HSE wants or the state or the anti-woman side.

So like I say on every thread. GO AWAY ELISA.

Teresa
‘What is the point of cursing and swearing at mothers with young babies just because you disagree with them’
This is a lie and you know it, this never happened and it obvicious you are yourself anti-woman and spreading this anti-woman propaganda.

by Teresa Tue May 08, 2007 12:27

I have to say that the responses above pretty much confirm my impression from yesterday.

For someone who is all in favour of choices, Sharon D, you are very quick to urge that children be taken from their parents - just because you don't agree with their views! That is simply outrageous.

Maybe a few children would make the pro-choicers a little less grim and heartless. I noticed that almost all the public support going by was for the pro-life argument - people with disabilities have a right to life.

by Sharon D. Tue May 08, 2007 11:56

"I particularly thought it was dreadful that some of Choice ireland videoed the children of pro-life people. That is illegal and for good reason, in this day and age with so many weirdos about no one wants their kids being filmed by a stranger. When one mother asked them to stop she was told to 'f' off."

So, despite the fact that there were no video cameras present, they make this claim. It sounds to me that they had it prepared in advance. They brought their poor little kids in the hope that somebody would film then so they could get outraged about it. What a horribly abusive way to use your children. They should be taken off these anti-choice fanatical child-using (and abusing) lunatics.

by Pollytix Tue May 08, 2007 11:46

It is not illegal to record, document, photograph or film in any public space.

by Joe Tue May 08, 2007 10:42

Teresa lies and lies badly.

It wasn't possible that we videoed kids for the very simple reason that we had no video cameras with us. The rest of the stuff about swearing etc is also a lie. The only video camera there was what looked like a commercial TV one on the other side of the road which the bigots happly pushed their kids out in front of with placards etc.

There was a problem in terms of stills photography in that in order to swell their numbers they had brought all their kids with them. This made it rather difficult to take photos without their being a kid somewhere in the picture as you might imagine. This was pointed out to the bigots at the time but in the end the only solution was the one I used above in blurring the faces of the children they left exposed in this manner.

I really don't think its fair to drag you kids along to such an anti-women protest no matter how desperate you are to swell your numbers.

by teresa Tue May 08, 2007 09:53

I was at the Four Courts yesterday. It was my first time at anything like that and I have to say I thought the pro-choicers really let themselves down. What is the point of cursing and swearing at mothers with young babies just because you disagree with them. They had a right to be there in solidarity with Miss D and her baby. I went because I think it really will be awful for this girl when she is left to deal with the aftermath of the abortion and I have to say I think she is being used by everyone to further ther own agendas.

I particularly thought it was dreadful that some of Choice ireland videoed the children of pro-life people. That is illegal and for good reason, in this day and age with so many weirdos about no one wants their kids being filmed by a stranger. When one mother asked them to stop she was told to 'f' off.

by socmot Mon May 07, 2007 23:35

...you could tell your bigoted anti-woman friends to stay away from the Four Courts for the rest of this case. All they've done is to distress Ms. D and they should be utterly ashamed of themselves for that, whatever they believe.

by Gaz B -(A)- Mon May 07, 2007 22:16

"You can be a feminist and still be pro life"
I fail to see how forcing a woman to remain pregnant regardless of her wishes can be considered 'feminist'. If you're pro-life - fine - don't have an abortion but don't use the state to enforce your morals on others.

by Elisa O'D Mon May 07, 2007 21:35

Just wanted to say two quick things on this article:

Firstly,I dont agree with the term 'anti-woman' being used here to desribe the pro life protesters.Considering you can see women in the picture I doubt they are 'anti women'.Can we use the term pro life from now on as anti women is not true and unfair. You can be a feminist and still be pro life.Your stance on abortion does not define whether you are a womenist or not.

Secondly,It saddens me to see pro life demonstrators outside the forecourts. It was my knowledge and I thought an understanding that pro life and all Religious groups would stay away from the forecourts due to the sensitive and young age of the women in question. I hope for the hearing tomorrow that both both pro life/pro choice will pray for the the most compassionate,humane and most positive outcome for Miss D whatever the descision.

by S Mon May 07, 2007 21:13

Hi, the verdict will now be on Wednesday- will the court be hearing this case at all tomorrow? Will we come tomorrow or Wed? Nothing might be on till Wednesday now. What do ya think?

by pro choice sinead Mon May 07, 2007 17:30

Today I was presant at the solidarity rally that took place outside the four courts. In response to Joe Blacks article I would further like to describe some of the treatment pro choice activists were subjected to today. Today as i walked through the corridor of pro life activists I was called a baby killer and a nazi. In fact as I walked back with a sandwich a 6 year old child shouted oh theres a baby killer look at her she kills babies. the Child was 6 years old or there abouts. how can so much hate come from someone so young.. where are they getting it from?

Then as I reentered the four courts to watch proceedings I was yelled at and called an evil child abuser by several pro life activists. Oddly a similar claim was made in the christian solidarity party rogue agancy run at 50 upper dorsett street when I claimed to want an abortion ,... they also said I was likely to become a child abuser. I am wondering if there is perhaps a link between the pro life people with their aborted fetus pictures outside the court today attempting to stop miss D exercising her right to choose by showing her gruesome picutures and the rogue agency who seek to interfere with womens right to choose using similarly inimidatiry practices?

by Neidiwoo - choice - personal capacity Mon May 07, 2007 17:20 sineadahern at gmail dot com

pro choice activists gather in solidarity with Miss D in record time in response to pro life presance in the fourcourts
Today Choice Ireland held a demonstration outside the Four Courts in support of “Miss D’ petition to overturn an order from the HSE which prevents her from leaving the state in order to procure an abortion. Around 30 Choice Ireland members along with several other supporters maintained a presence outside the four courts until 12; 30pm at which point the demonstration was ended and representatives for choice Ireland entered the court room in order to hand a petition of support to Miss D.

The petition of upwards of 200 signatures was collated at the Rally in support of Miss D which took place in the GPO Saturday May 5th. The petition was a statement of support of Miss D in her current situation and in support of her right to choose.

At 1pm however a large group of youth defense supporters arrived at the courthouse and held a demonstration. The group of about 30 people held placards displaying pro-life slogans and large A0 colour photos of aborted fetuses. In a personal conversation with one of the supporters one Choice Ireland member was told that “Miss D” was in fact being forced to have an abortion by the state and that the group were there in solidarity with them. Miss D should not have to have what is already an incredibly difficult situation for her further exacerbated by facing the incredibly distressing sight of aborted fetus’s and signs proclaiming that abortion is murder each time she leaves the courtroom.

In response those in support of “Miss D” responded incredibly speedily and enthusiastically. Within 45 minutes of the pro-life demonstration beginning around 50 pro-choice activists carrying the banner of “choice Ireland” had gathered outside the Four Courts. The speed with which the myriad supporters gathered is a true testament to how strongly people feel about this case and how much people want to support Miss D and protect her from scenes like that which unfolded outside the court today of protestors insensitively showing pictures of babies. By 2pm the pro Life group had dispersed leaving some 50 pro-choice activists maintaining a presence outside the court for a further hour.

The events of today have made it clear both that we must all remain focused on supporting Miss D and her right to choose in response to such inhumane treatment and also that with no organization or planning activists accomplished a great deal simply by arriving in such force at the four courts and showing their solidarity. It seems that a final verdict on this case could still be some time coming but we need to continue showing our support in any small way that we can. To this end Choice Ireland will be again having a presence outside the 4 courts from 10; 30 pm tomorrow Tuesday May 8th. All support is vitally needed.