Meeting Report: Unaccountable and Unacceptable Gardaí

by peter carrol Fri Nov 30, 2007 14:41

There was a great attendence last night a crowd of 200 listened in hushed silence in a packed room in the royal dublin hotel last ,
The panel spoke about the unacceptable level of unaccountability from there experiences with the gardai.
indeed when the mic took to the floor people listened to other peoples accounts in there dealings with the gardai.
i felt it was shocking to hear these people singled out by members for abuse for a variety of reasons, some making a stand, some who complained, even some who complained of been abused.

i feel there is an acceptable level of violence which is ingrained in the gardai culture of secrecy
we must support meetings like this so it is shown that are people who will question and debate the culture of violence that exists with in the gardai.

by answers Fri Nov 30, 2007 21:29

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1130/cabra.html
"Every day the bucket, go to the well. One day the bottom will drop out"

by attendee Fri Nov 30, 2007 22:36

Sean your contribution was pompous, condescending and obviously came from a lack of any political experience or understanding. Calling for the people of Rossport to be arrested at a public meeting regardless of the context is idiotic. Telling people that the gardai work for them is entirely naive, they work for the state and the state rules on behalf of a specific class.

The meeting itself was excellent, pity indymedia featured this particular account though.

by Seán Ryan Fri Nov 30, 2007 23:15

It seems attendee that your faculties are none too sharp. I was echoing what John Monaghan had said about arrests. John was the Rossport representative, in case your dulled senses failed to register that too.

The Gardaí most certainly are servants of the people. Michael Staines the very first Garda commissioner had this to say: "The Garda Síochána will succeed not by force of arms or numbers, but on their moral authority as servants of the people." This quote is now on a plaque in Dublin Castle.

Here's a quote from the Irish Examiner that's quoting the Garda Commissioner - he seems to think that they are servants of the people too: "GARDA Commissioner Noel Conroy has restated his claim that garda indiscipline is “not a major problem” and described some gardaí who lost their jobs because of the Morris Tribunal as “good servants of the people”."
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2006/09/26/story14...5.asp

by attendee Sat Dec 01, 2007 01:02

Sean please dont take such a condescending attitude with people who dont agree with you, assuming they dont understand what you were saying.

The simple fact is you can call yourself a reporter when you stand up at a meeting but it doesnt make you one - the gardai can call themselves servants of the people but that doesnt make it true either. They are not and never will be, their role is to uphold the interests of the ruling class within society (primarily defending private property).

by seedot Sat Dec 01, 2007 01:40

See, there's the thing attendee, what other report was there to feature? How can you support both the purpose of the meeting and the purpose of the indymedia meeting and oppose that this, the only report as far as I can see, is featured?

Yes the man in the funny hat will always be on the side of the bosses and Seans belief in constitutional relief and the law can be disconcerting, but what is your alternative in this place?

Did you write your report - either as a story or as a comment on this report?

Did you contribute media, record or document?

Or did you come here to snipe and complain about the featuring of this cause you supposedly support?

Give an analysis or an account or a contribution.

Or fuck off to the sneering fatalism of whatever sect you and your mates have invented.

by Seán Ryan Sat Dec 01, 2007 01:59

And what is it that qualifies you as an expert in anything?

It's not that I don't believe that you misunderstood anything said, in fact it's obvious that you are only here to troll. What is your contribution?

What's your great truth?

What have you added to this thread other than insult (and feeble at that). I mean if you were capable of a decent debate I'm sure you'd try. However, this is not the street and volume won't work here.

Here's a tip - quote something I said and point out what's wrong with it. It's my bet you'll either take it out of context, truncate it or fail to understand it. Other than that, this is not a forum where you can work out your childhood issues of abandonment and I'm not your parent.

Quote some law or authority that suggests the Gardaí are not servants of the people. Christ above, we know that they do not act like servants. If they did there would have been no need for the meeting. If it is a given that they are not servants of the people why do people feel that the Gardaí should be accountable?

Whilst you are trying to fathom all of this, I suggest that you read what you've written and see what a complete tool you are making of yourself. I've a feeling that our whole conversation (for want of a better description) will soon dissappear. Try not to be too hurt, I did afterall condescend to read your mewling drool.

by Chrissie Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:58

The matter in question is whether the Gardai will be allowed to be above the Law. Of course there are still many individual Gardai of good conscience who see their job as protecting people from crime & violence, but in any organised group there is always an 'esprit de corps' & an unwillingness to break ranks or 'betray' other members. We need to ensure that Gardai actions taken in our name & from our tax revenues are within the Law, & that GardaI are accountable for their actions. Seeing Garda violence go unchecked weakens our society & the credibility of the State entirely.

by paul o toole Sat Dec 01, 2007 18:05

Seems to me that by all accounts the meeting went off well. The fact that the room was packed speaks for itself.
The failure of Government to have An Gardai Siochana independently investigated into brutality exacted upon the people it claims to be 'protecting' , also speake for itself.

If the McBrearties can have police plant evidence, write and sign 'confessions' on their behalf, plant explosives to frame them... If the Wheelock family have been met with tampered evidence, silence from within the police station and endless harrassment from the same police station so they had to move from their home because they were looking for answers into the death of their son....similarly forthe Rossiter family....and if the residents of Bellnaboy get battoned out of ot trying to protect their rights as the Govt. give away 410 billion of our nations assets..., then you have to ask who is running the Gardai?

If Mc Doughall oversaw the corruption in Donneygal as Atty. General, and then as Minister for justice continnued to ignore rampant corruption in the force which ammounts to brutality, if not murder, and no one in Govt. with the willingness to confront this, you can expect more, and more, of the same.
A police state which is no longer covert.

by We have a bad government Sat Dec 01, 2007 20:04

I'd have to agree that within the Gardai there is an element who think that they are beyond reproach. I have no doubt there are abuses being carried out by Gardai. Yes, they work for the people. But their orders come from the government. The Minister for Justice decides things at the end of the day. And if you can't trust the government (our current one can't and shouldn't be trusted!) how can you trust its agencies i.e. the Gardai, the HSE?

Last week I had a run in with the Special Branch and their behaviour was appalling. I have since filed a complaint with the Garda Ombudsman. But since its Gardai investigating Gardai I'm not getting my hopes up.

by ... Sat Dec 01, 2007 22:18

An interesting previous piece here on indymedia Ireland in the link below, but it should be pointed out that this isn't something particualr to Ireland, it's the fundaments of the police and the police as a wing of the state, the monopoly on violence. An organised and systemic violence at that. One only has to turn on the tv and take a look at current affairs in Paris and France right now to see the hatred felt towards the police and the reasons for the rioting to realise how this extends beyond Ireland. That this is the bedrock of the way society is currently organised and no laws or accountability are going to change that.

I've tried to keep this as impersonal as possible, on the subject and contribute to the topic but Sean, seriously, your views and opinions do come across as quite naive and lacking experinece with the police, I mean if the Garda Commisioner said it then it must be true, it's not like the myth of "servants of the people" could be used to maintain the inequitable social order as it currently stands?!

Also, the comment about murder and rape, how are the gardai going to stop this from happening after the fact? Maybe some of our taxes are going toward some sort of Minority Report technological research on behalf of the gardai. I'm sure there's a few templemore recruits who see themselves as the next Colin Farrell or Tom Cruise but we're not living in a sci-fi adventure, not that Philip K. Dick may have been too far off in his distopian views and fears of a future surveillance society.

by Seán Ryan Sun Dec 02, 2007 01:21

There is still an awful lot of bickering going on in this thread. The real pity of the matter is that the bickering is mostly between those who share a common goal.

I often find myself attacked for my belief in seeking to have the authorities confine themselves to the letter of the law, Gardaí included. I’m basically being told that I as an anarchist should not recognise the authoritarian big brother and confine myself only to arguments that concede no legitimacy to big brother.

Mostly I’m attacked for my belief that the Constitution can be used as a weapon. I’m accused of having a religious devotion to the document and of promoting its legitimacy and truthfulness.

In reality nothing is further from the truth. I fully recognise that the Constitution is a DeValera inspired piece of shite, written specifically to collar and shackle the peoples of this nation, who are the rightful and final judges of their own descriptions and destinies. I recognise that this piece of shit was sent to the pope for his approval before it was foisted on a people already wearied and made cynical by generations of oppression and inhumanity. I also recognise that this piece of shite is the documentation that authorises and defines, the government, the courts, the law and it’s bootboys and enforcers, the Gardaí.

On top of all of that I recognise something else. I recognise that those who rail and shout the loudest with regard to what I say, will to the very last one of them, get down on bended knee and humbly crawl into a court when ordered to do so, and accept whatever punishment their self-appointed betters choose to impose on them. After that, it’s straight back to Indymedia, to call me a hypocrite and a collaborator.

My detractors too recognise the Constitution, they just choose to blame me for their hypocrisy. That’s fair enough, every fiction needs its bad guy.

With regard to my view on the Constitution.

If the Constitution is used to fetter the people of Ireland and it is, it is a weapon of considerable power. The difference between me and my detractors is a small one but it’s an important one. Afterall I too will run to the Court should I be summoned. The difference is that I do not consider DeValera and his minions to have been either intelligent or omnipotent and I’m willing to fight these fuckers using their own bullshit and waffle against them, rather than incorporate myself into the game plan and allow my fate to be decided by those who play the game. Will I win or lose the batte? That’s not the point, the point is that I win the overall game as I fight under terms I dictate.

As I said, I see the Constitution as a weapon. To me, I look at the issue this way: The Constitution is a pile of guns stacked in the street (manufactured by the oppressors). I see the oppressors pick up the guns and they start to shoot those whom I love and care for. Most scream at me, “Don’t pick up the gun, it’s a tool of the oppressor.” I recognise that, I have never failed to do so. But I will not be a cow patiently waiting to see if I will be spared. I will pick up the weapon and God help who gets in my way.

My demand that the ‘authorities’ confine themselves to the rule of law (their law - not mine) is nothing more than a call on my behalf, to demand a level playing field. I consider no person to be my superior and I consider no person to be my inferior. The oppressors when forced to play by their rules, do not have either truth or legitimacy on their side - I do. To call for and demand for the pitch to be made level, I stack the game in my favour.

Again, will I lose the battle?

Probably.

But to lose this battle and to do it publically is to offer a chance to win the war, to those who come after and learn from my inevitable mistakes. It is a methodology that requires a new kind of war. A war that does not promote bloodshed. No former war has ever succeeded, It’s time to change the approach (again only my opinion and its up for debate and ridicule is hardly debate).

Now, as I said at the meeting and as I’ve said here. The State and its mechanisms of slavery have described themselves as my servants. I have described them as my servants. I consider this to be an example of where the playing field has been made level.

Let the game begin!

by paul o toole Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:05

As you wander off topic the police in some police station are probably covering up another fatality of one of their detainees in custody.
There probably wondering..
...Which painting contractor will we use this time to paint the cell and destroy evidence?...
....Who is going to volunteer to remove the names of the officers on the custody record and destroy more evidence?...
.....Who will plan the rotation of harassment to ensure life becomes un-livable for those seeking answers..?.
... Who will volunteer to go to the hospital and remove the clothing from the latest 'fatality' and destroy more evidence...?
...Who will we put in charge of ensuring that no one, absolutely no one in the force opens there mouth about the 'incident'...and who will decide what the consequences will be if they do...
.
...and then imagine it is your brother or son or daughter were talking about.

One thing is for certain and that is, that there will be ZERO consequences to face from above from those in charge, thus endorsing the corruption...except , mabey , a promotion or better again, early rertirement.

by Shane Sun Dec 02, 2007 22:38

On the subject of France and the current riots, lets try to remember that it now appears the 2 boys speeded through a red light on a stolen bike and drove into the side of a police car that was not even looking for them.

I fail to see how the police can be blamed for that. It seems to be that those complaining feel that certain people are above the law and Im not talking about the police.

by Informed Mon Dec 03, 2007 01:54

"On the subject of France and the current riots, lets try to remember that it now appears the 2 boys speeded through a red light on a stolen bike and drove into the side of a police car that was not even looking for them.

I fail to see how the police can be blamed for that. It seems to be that those complaining feel that certain people are above the law and Im not talking about the police."

People get caught up in crime through social and economic disadvantage, for the most part. As long as political leaders do not recognise this, in this instance, the French president calling them "degenerates" like an echo from Nazi Germany, then it will continue, and more will suffer.

The solution is not prisons and more police, but a radical transformation of social and economic conditions. Something politicians are not in the business of doing while in the pockets of the wealthy and economic elites.

Before entirely condemning those who stole the bike, it would be wise to see the conditions which lead them to thier actions. Then look at what mechanisms maintain and defend those conditions.

The police do not come out clean.

by Jim Davis Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:32

So let me make sure I understand this... It's societies fault that they stole the bicycle and it's the police fault that they drove straight thru a red light and into their car?

by Informed Tue Dec 04, 2007 19:01

"So let me make sure I understand this... It's societies fault that they stole the bicycle and it's the police fault that they drove straight thru a red light and into their car?"

This is a very simple issue if you just use your brain instead of waffling on about what speed the bike was doing, what colour his helmet was, what colour the traffic light was and who they crashed into. NONE such details are in any way relevent to what lead them to their actions.

I said social and economic conditions - or do you have an alternative explanation (genetically inferior or spiritually evil maybe? LOL)?

Let me quote something very well written by 'Chekov' about social and economic conditions relating to Ireland, although the same applies elsewhere. This was in the discussion about the Dublin riots btw. http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74528

"All of those people who are going on about scum should be bloody ashamed of themselves. No human being is scum and there are reasons why people behave in certain ways.

75% of inmates in mountjoy come from 6 identifiable areas, pockets of deprivation in the city (John Lonergan, Mountjoy Governor). Ireland has the most unequal distribution of income in the EU (UN report 2002). Crime and anti-social behaviour are strongly correlated with poverty and inequality - to put it simply, if you have a society like ours where enormous wealth sits side by side with deprivation, you will have anti-social behaviour and it's nothing to do with people being 'scum' - it's social reality not choice. "lifestyle choices are limited by economic circumstances" (Health inequalities and Irish General Practice in areas of deprivation). 22% of the population live on weekly incomes of less than 164 euro per adult and 54 euro per child per week (combat poverty agency, 2004).

Young men living in over-crowded, deprived council estates suffer some of the worst consequences of this inequality. They see wealth and consumer goods all around them, they are sold a message that there are opportunities for all and that they have all the choices in the world, but the reality is that they are excluded from this wealth and have seriously limited choices. This produces destructive behaviour - they come to blame themselves for their inability to attain the wealth that is around them - hence hospitalisation rates for mental illness are more than six times higher for people in lower socio economic groups than for those in the higher groups and suicide rates are more than 5 times higher (public health alliance of Ireland 2003). Mortality rate in the lowest occupational class is 100%-200% higher than the rate in the highest occupational class (Balanda, Wilde 2001). This self destructive behaviour also manifests itself in terms of alcohol and drug abuse (heroin addiction is almost exclusively a problem for deprived young people). It also manifests itself in anti-social behaviour and crime.

Calling for harsher measures against such people is not only morally reprehensible, it is counter productive. A national representative study published in the BMJ showed 40% of irish prisoners inject drugs - 21% inject for the first time while in prison. That means that prison actually creates more problems than it solves in the long run. Troubled kids go into prison and many of them emerge with heroin habits which require a criminal lifestyle to feed. In any case, this group are already massively over-represented in prisons, 50% of prisoners are under 24 and 80% are under 35 (health in prisons project).

Those people who think that calling the most disadvantaged and unfortunate members of our society 'scum' is a solution to anything deserve a thrashing. In fact, they deserve to be brought up in a broken home, with an abusive, alcholic father and a mother who is addicted to heroin and regularly beaten and bullied. They then deserve to have a whole bunch of more fortunate people looking down upon them as 'scum'. In particular anybody who thinks that they are a socialist or progressive in any way and uses such terminology is a fucking hypocrite and a disgrace."

I hope this sheds light as to how a persons material conditions limit and shape their actions. France has very serious social and economic problems leading to these riots and the social upheavel. To blame the rioters or those who stole the bike is pointless and explains nothing and solves nothing,

by steve biko Thu Dec 06, 2007 17:37

lots of rambling going on here, many going of the piont here.
was at the meeting its a disgrace what cops can get away with in this country..
but time are changing years not so long ago it would be inconceivable to hold a meeting of its nature.
agree what "paul otoole"had to say some important pionts.
is there anything else coming up?

by Jim Davis Sat Dec 08, 2007 22:33

People have to be held accountable for their own actions. What informed is doing is taking one thing and calling it something else, alleviating the responsibility people have for their own actions. In effect what your saying is that it’s not crime it’s poverty or it’s not a riot it’s an expression of peoples rage.

The very people who alleviate the criminals’ responsibility for their crimes are the very ones who are campaigning for the Gardai to be held accountable for theirs.

by paul Mon Dec 10, 2007 16:16

yes because the garda are supposed to serve the people..they should be accountable.
regarding criminals... well thats what the cops get paid to do bring them to justice..
that does not mean they get a free ride over peoples civil liberties.. the corrupts one of course..
i'm not saying all garda are corrupt but in the last 30 yrs time and again theres is no answers or accountabilty in contraversal cases that have manifested
and that is just not acceptable.
we need an accountable and transparent policing with a decent ombudsman not a waterdown commision.

by Sean Fri Dec 14, 2007 01:32

Gardaí serve the people by upholding the law. that is the job they have been granted by the people of Ireland. If some of the laws they enforce it is not for them to change them, it is up to the people, and if they do change, the gardaí will uphold the new laws with the same commitment.

by Fearbolg - S2S Fri Dec 14, 2007 17:52

Try visiting Belmullet District Court and see how they uphold the truth

by rory Sun Dec 30, 2007 15:54

try visiting the bridewell courts chancery st.
and watch overweight gardai lie true there teeth

by john Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:55

a man died in terenure garda station on newyears eve he was 32 and from drimnagh. cause of death is anyones guess at the present time
another man from tallagh was knocked down and killed by a garda car in tallagh on new years night.

by Cath - None Fri Jan 04, 2008 00:32 katiem at iolfree dot ie

Getting away from the original point, I know, but I have to argue with some of the points raised in the above comments. Poverty and social deprivation is no excuse for the behavior being excused in some posts above. In fact, these apologists smack of moral superiority. I grew up in Govan, on the banks of the Clyde. My father was an alcoholic, who beat my mother on a regular basis, couldn't hold a job, and was caught several times for drunk driving, which eventually forced us to flee to Mayo, to escape his arrest in 1975. We lived in a shack without running water, he drank the dole money, beat my mum and I lost count of the times, at 12, I had to ring the cops and ambulance. He also beat myself and my 9 year old sister, before abandoning us in a country foreign to my Glasgow born and bred mother. If it wasn't for those cops, god knows where our family would be today. I am 44, am married with two very well behaved children, and hold a very responsible job, as does my sister in London. Why? Because my mother did not let my fathers behavior influence the way we behaved. No one in the area expected us to amount to much, and we were very much the outcasts, but we rose above our circumstances, and it was all down to my mum.
I live in a very small rural town, and the local thugs are not all from the expected social stereotypes. One of them is the son of a very prominent local businessman, who has five sons, and all but one are the epitome of social standing.
Before the bleeding hearts get at me, walk in my shoes before you pontificate on things you know nothing about. Everyone has a choice. It might not be an easy one, but it does exist.
Spare me your middle class liberalism, and get real. The cops have a job to do, and not an easy one. Whether you are working class, middle class or a class above, the law should apply equally.
One last point. Has anyone of you ever had to call the cops, on a serious matter? Let me tell you, when you are 12 years old, and holding your drunken father at bay with a bread knife, just to stop him killing your mother, the cops are a very welcome sight, and don't ever forget this image. They see things that most of us cannot imagine, if we are lucky, so it is very easy to judge. Cut them some slack, you never know when you might really need them. Happy New Year, One and All!

by Jim Davis Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:42

It's worth pointing out that the Wheelocks didn't accept the verdict given by the coroners inquest and the garda ombudsman has decided to investigate the circumstances surrounding Terence Wheelocks death.

Garda Ombudsman is and independent body set up to investigate complaints and alleged offenses against members of An Garda Siochana.

I get the impression that most posters on this site would not accept any verdict by any independednt body that fully acquitted the gardai.

by noel Mon Jan 07, 2008 15:46

jim mat be your feeling is right......seems that cover ups are ingrained in the very fabric that made up the institutions of this state..
where were the gardai when sexual predators hidden by the moral high ground of the church where sexually abusing children for decades. surely the gardai with all there intelligence had a snippet what was going on when it was such a widspread activity.
this has been proven.

by Joe Reid Mon Jan 07, 2008 16:46

The 29th January 2008 will mark the 5th anniversary of the death of Mary Reid in County Donegal.Garda incompetence of an unprecented level has meant that the people that planned and executed the murder of my sister will never spend time in prison for their crime. There has never been a formal apology from the Gardai to Mary's family and no action was taken against any member of the Donegal Gardai for their lies and lack of professionalism.

by observer Thu Jan 10, 2008 14:52

joe sympathies to you and your family
i dont mean to pry but what where the circumstances of your sisters death?
thank you

by the reporter Fri Apr 11, 2008 19:25

at long last the garda are proved not to have assaulted that poor young lad in tipperary, i cant understand how his parents couldnt keep control of him and left the gardai to mind him. i think we all owe the gaurds an apology. as for that poor donegal gall, im afraid you should let her rest in pace

by report Fri Apr 11, 2008 23:32

Have you read the Rossiter report then? All 500 hundred pages? Which is not being made public?

From what I understand from the media reports it is a long way from giving the guards a clean sheet...

It looks to many people like the cops killed him and tried to cover it up

by pensioner Sat Apr 12, 2008 01:01

To the huge disapointment of the usual Garda-haters the report had two clear findings:

1. Not a whit of evidence that Rossiter was assaulted or mis-treated by the Gardai in being taken into custody or while in detention.

2. That his arrest was unlawful on the grounds of a legal-technicality (i.e. that no power of arrest exists in relation to the circumstances in which Rossiter was detained - even though it appears that when he was arrested he was a potential danger to himself and others due to substances he had taken, and even though the young man's father had requested theGuards to detain him). There was no implication whatsoever that the detention was motivated by anything other than Rossiter's welfare, given the condition he was in.

What the report does not deal with in sufficient depth are the violent incidents in which Rossiter had previousty been involved, the source of the illegal drugs which were discovered in his body by the pathologist, and the quality of the parenting which seems to have completely failed this young man.

by eyes open Sat Apr 12, 2008 01:33

have you read the report? How? It hasn't been released.

Only excerpts of the report have been released. Here's one:

"The documentation produced in the course of the investigation into the death of Brian Rossiter and the evidence heard at this Inquiry does not show any indication of there being any real investigation in relation to the possibility of Brian Rossiter having been assaulted or his having received a fatal injury while in custody."

by pensioner Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:59

Yes, indeed.

And after concluding that there was a failure on the part of the Garda Internal investigation to properly investigate that matter, the report itself looked at the evidence and concluded that not a whit of evidence existed to support the contention that Rossiter had been mis-treated while being detained or while in Garda custody.

Predictably, the usual Garda-haters will try to confuse the inadequacy of the Garda internal investigation with the substantive issue of the treatment of Rossiter while in custody. The new Office of the Garda Ombudsman will have charge of future investigations into complaints against the Garda. That is a proper and timely reform and will ensure objective and independent investigation of complaints, and will also protect the Gardai from the sort of wild and unsubstantiated allegations which motivate the dishonest and misleading title to the comment-piece which heads this discussion-line.

by 95thesis Sun Apr 13, 2008 19:28

"motivate the dishonest and misleading title to the comment-piece which heads this discussion-line."

Dishonest and misleading? Where you at the meeting? Seems like a strange line to take on a meeting that you weren't at, based on a report that you haven't read. Isn't it a bit abusive really?

But since you so well informed maybe you can tell us, who wrote Brian's nickname on the ceiling of his cell? He couldn't reach the ceiling, yet the gardai claimed he fell and injured himself trying to do it.

Is that a Garda pension you're claiming, by the way?