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Friday June 13, 2008 13:36
by paul o toole
pauljotoole at eircom dot net
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Comments (184 of 184)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184From the horse's mouth.
PaddyPower.com has stopped taking bets on the outcome. (He did that last year too after prices on various FF combinations were falling all day.) Last available odds were 4/11 on a Yes vote.
Meanwhile, over on Betfair, there are only small amounts of money up for staking, but the prices are 3/1 No and 1/4 Yes.
It's all over bar the shouting. Bookies don't get these things wrong.
Not so fast, there. Just checked betfair now and YES has drifted from 1/4 to 1/3 to 4/6 and now 8/11! NO is at 6/5 from 5/2!
Looks like those early tallies are saying NO, NO, NO!
From RTE breaking news:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbon.html
"Working class areas of the capital are reported to be voting two to one against Lisbon, while the vote is more evenly split in middle class districts.
In Donegal North East, with 10% of boxes opened, not one has a Yes majority, while in Tipperary North, political sources are predicting that the result will be very close, and in Wicklow."
Bookies get it wrong roughly 50% of the time.
They have margins (and Tax Breaks) and plentiful supply of punters to willing to part with their hard earned money and gamble against each other on all manner of beast which makes it impossible for them to loose money....is that what you meant.
Like lotteries, gambling, horse and dog betting it is just a distraction from real life. A possible dream landing on your lap for a euro or two. No different than big brother, star search, pop idol.....
Remember ..if your not in ...you cant loose
Looks like this rejection is not even going to be that narrow - ah ya can almost hear the tears in Pat Kenny's voice!
kp
A few suburbs showing about 55% yes, and city centre, and remaining suburbs about 55% no, - apart from Southill which is showing 86% NO.
Cheer up comrades. No is running away with it.
Kenny just said that after the break in his show they may be moving into a post-mortem phase! All commentators conceded that it was unlikely the early trends would be bucked. The No victory is likely to be a bit tighter than the initial 60/40 against tallies, and despite Cowen's overwhelming Yes victory in Offaly (my constituency, that is, if I wasn't in Poland and was actually allowed to vote) it looks like he's going to have a rough ride in Brussels - maybe he will take up Ganley's ticket afterall? Or else, his Green partners will convince him to travel by bus or even hitch!
Enda Kenny has already stated that Mayo has been 'lost' to the 'No' vote.
With such a week of great victories for us, any chance someone will manage to do a citizen's arrest on Bush.
Yea - I think we have to acknowledge that the no vote was an amalgam of views - many in direct contradiction!
BUT whats making me personally happy is that its a direct puck in the eye for the establishment both here and in Europe - slows them makes them a little more cautious with what they might attempt in terms of further privitization/militarization
kp
Apparently poor old Paddy Power had already started to pay out on YES votes and may now have to pay on NO as well - not a great outcome for them!!
kp
Afraid to celebrate yet but if this stays the way its looking I'll be over to Robert Reades pub on Store St, haunt of several Indo juorno's, for a bit of triumphalism.
So now they are fighting about where the No vote came from, the Irish Times polled people who intended to vote no as to why last week, note that corporate tax (the Libertas issue) was not significant at 5%
Why people intended to vote No
Dun Laoghaire and South Dublin 60% yes.
Cork, surprisingly, voting No. North Central to the tune of 65%, South Central to the tune of 55%.
The Kenny show is music to one's ears, that is, if you can bear listen to Pat himself. The Yessies have their knickers in a twist and Kenny is his usual biased self, doing everything he can to shut up Patricia McKenna and other panelists. So it looks like Dublin south-east and Offaly are 2 of the few that will probably carry a Yes majority.
Is Paddy Power taking bets on when Lisbon II will be?
Its interesting that Kenny and the "expert" suburbanite yesser panel keep referring to abortion, euthanasia etc
-yet neither figures in the poll above - the 17% not liking been told what to do is interesting and encouraging.
Definitely various protests in there - for example apparently huge no vote down Wexford coast - must be fishermen?!
Its great that its by boxes rather than E voting always more fun...
...to count your little 3 millions of voices :-) , but please, find us a "no" against Sarko mafia and co !
This guys has employed desinformation and other very curious methods to steal hour right to vote. Quasi all media directors are his big friends.
Please, a little "no" from you, and I will make me drunk with my favory beer (Guinness), with love in heart for my European brothers. :-) [no need Traity !] I have stopped to drink alccol, theses last monthes, but her taste is coming like taste of victory against economic mafia.
No to OMC, no to Monsanto. No to one power in top of world ! No to lobbies decisions that make us going back fare in time !
See you later... :-)
Fingers crossed!
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0613/bre...1.htm
The guy from France is right!
If NO is over 50%, I' ll get drunk drinking Guiness tonight, too!
Good luck!
NO 53.3 YES 46.7
from RTE again
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbon.html
The first official result in the Lisbon Referendum is in, and it confirms the strength of the No vote.
Waterford voted by 54-46 to reject the Treaty - a higher No vote than was recorded in the first Nice Referendum.
Sligo North Lietrim 56.9: 43.1
(and on a 51% voter turn out - higher than Nice 1 AND 2)
Looks like overall nationally probably be about 54:46 to "No"
I beg to differ, I see no surprise in the No vote by Cork, nor nationally.
From my Rebel standpoint, and from all the letterboxes and doorsteps I and my comrades visited over the past month, there was no surprise at all in this result, only in the scale and the broad spread of where the No vote predominated. In everything we did during the campaign there was always the sense that we were getting across a message in voting No to Lisbon that people were prepared to entertain and in many cases even wanted to hear. Normally I don't enjoy Prat Kenny's menagerie of establishment popinjays that he has on of a Friday, but today I cant help enjoying the delicious spectacle unfolding before our eyes, as the masks slip off the faces of our rulers in their petulant rage at an electorate that for once was not duped by them. The voice of the people as expressed in a referendum is now an obstacle to be overcome, says Fine Gael's Lucinda Creighton. Our politicians, the self-styled priesthood of 'democracy' worship only themselves and we will watch them execrate and deliberately misinterpret this result: the people have spoken and the establishment won't wear it.
Now, that's Ireland's (and Europe's) rulers for you!
Sorry I was only half listening to the radio - I tink Justin has the correct stats there on Sligo!!
Might this be the "all-merciful" kick up the arse that so many politicians (here, there, and everywhere) have so badly needed for so long?
If so, maybe the completion of the "unfinished work" has already now begun right here in Ireland?
i.e. "... government of the people, by the people, for the people ..."
Rte tv had on minister martin and Mary lou mc donald talking about the No victory and Irish nutrality.
Both of there views were limp efforts as a discussion about nutrality.
These two are un qualified to talk of nutrality , just as are Ganley and Kenny who are the four picked for QnA on Monday...very clever.
They talk of nutrality whilst...
Ganley..along with his friends the Macelvaddy brothers re=fuell US warplanes in Shannon and make millions on Genocide.
Mary Lou...along with the Unionists, invites weapons manufacturers to the North as part of the 'Peace dividend' in peaceful times
Michael Martin...his party allow Shannon to be used to kill 1.2 million Iraqi and Afghani civilians. Turn 500,000 women into widows and 5,000,000 children into orphans.
Kenny... who cares what comes out of his mouth.
The hypocryts give us their post mortem as they gave their pre mortem......Lets hear someone with an original un biased view for once from RTE.....its on heads to do so.
I just want to thank the Irish in the name of other Europeans, who didn't get the chance to vote on this treaty.
You have voted in our name, too.
In Hungary, the parliament wanted to break the record of ass-licking/kissing to EU by ratifing it 2 days after it was signed in Brussels.
Thank you.
Can we now look forward to the French Government releasing their suppressed white paper on defence. What is in the French paper that the Government Elite of the European Union thought would influence us to vote NO to Lisbon? Was our neutrality really protected in the Lisbon Treaty? Does the secret document really show the actual mechanism for raising defence spending, under Article 42.3 of the vanquished Treaty, to 6% of our GDP - approximately 10 billion euros?
The Postal Vote/ Army is revealing an overwhelming YES vote. Won't the little boys and girls of our magnificent Shannon Airport defenders and their US and British educated officers bemoan the fact they now won't have all that lovely money to buy more toys and with which to play more stupid killing games with their NATO pals in Afghanistan.
It's a no according to them, 54.6% No to 45.4% Yes on average.
Wexford No 60-40%
Kildare North & south yes, votes about 53-47%
Louth No 58-42%
and so on.
They cannot challenge each other because they all support the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan while pretending to uphold our constitutional Nutrality
They all support each other in circumventing Nutrality.
"It seems certain that Irish voters have rejected the Lisbon Treaty."
RTE update (13:36 hours) at: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbon.html
To French NO-ist I say: a votre sante mon ami. Vous et vos amis serez tous bienvenue en Irland cet ete. Ce soir je vais boir vin blanc ordinaire. Prost, as they say in Germany! Slainte a chairde.
I don't think so. We can't sit on our collective asses and wait for the next attempt to trick us into a bad deal. Plenty of people are active on issues of social justice, anti-corruption and peace, so let's encourage more people to join in that struggle, rather than let the dark side regroup while the public slips back into consumerism (exactly where the politicians want them to remain)..
Hey people in Ireland, thanx for the NO! Thanx a lot. I don t believe that the european powers will respect the results in the way they should but for all the people of the civil society this is a huge sign! Yessa , go people of Ireland, go people of Europe!
who got out there and engaged with the public, with limited time and funds, and broke the cosy consensus about the Treaty.
And thanks to all the voters who listened, and decided not to bullied or tricked by a shower of liars.
Well done.
A Campaign of civil disobience if they steal the peoples victory by forcing through a second referendum to overturn the result. We will have to hit the streets and block off the streets in that case. Dont expect the 'opposition' parties like labour to stand up for our rights and I dont know if Libertas and the small left parties would have the bottle for an Campaign of civil disobience and effective protests (not the usual pathetic marches on O' Connell St which everyone ignores). If they dont then the leadership on this issue will have to come from the people themselves.
They are saying (over and over) that the no vote was the result of unfounded fears of 'conscription to a eu army' generated by No campaigners. Not justified fears of govt attitudes to neutrality. Might they use that meme to justify a re-run?
I reckon if, and it's a big if, it is run again the most effective form of civil disobedience would be an absolute and total and publicised boycott of the poll.
The Governments of Europe might freak out now but the people of Europe will thank the people of Ireland for swimming against the tide.
As a Tara Campaigner I voted No because of the EU's cavalier attitude to the destruction of our heritage and how ineffective the ECJ and the commissioner were when they could have taken the Government to court.
The unbelievable arrogance and deafness of the Government during the campaign did them no favours either - sending D. Roche, arch-wrecker of our heritage, out to tell us to vote yes was a fatal mistake. Cowen's own arrogance did not help either.
Welcome to Lu-La Land!
("bisous" is "kisses" for family word in french)
To night, I will make me drunked with my favorite beer (Guinness), with love in heart for my European brothers. :-) [no need Treaty !] For my brothers in World they want to be free from economic well thinking dictature.
I have stopped drinking alcool, theses last monthes, but its taste is coming like taste of victory against economic mafia.
No to OMC, no to Monsanto. No to one power in top of world ! No to lobbies decisions that make us going back fare in time ! At least, in Middle Ages !
They told they have no b plan ("plan b" ). It is maybe a good occasion to think and make an alternative.
To begin by the beginning. Make an Commun Philosophy UE.
Tell what points of human values we want to be respected.
Because, there is a big conflict between Human Rights and Economics ones.
What one side wins, the other losts it. (Ce que l'un gagne, l'autre le perd - vases communicants)
(Evolution on ireland.com, is not so wonderful, now, but the No resists).
See you later... :-)
To Tommy : Tu speakes va-hachement bien le french, toi ! J'ai vu des photos ! Ca a l'air beau l'Irlande. Mais je n'ai pas les moyens, pour l'instant, de m'y rendre.
Un forum français où des intervenants remercient les Irlandais :
http://www.marianne2.fr/Les-Irlandais-ont-rejete-le-tra...ments
Quel que soit votre vote, le texte s'appliquerait quand même ? ??? Il va falloir être vilgilant.
A +. Au fait, je dois aller acheter la bière.
To the Greek beer drinker
Sto Ellinas paidi : kai ligo ellenisa eimai ! :-)
apo pou eisai ;
I think we'll drink Guinness (or Murphy's) instead of wine tonight here in my tiny "Gallic village" at the French countryside. Félicitations ! Éirinn Go Brách !
Its not often we get to say it. But today is one of those times.
I'm Irish and I'm Proud !!!
Congtaulations so us.
Voting 'No' because you don't understand what it's about is not only monumentally stupid but an irrespnsible use of your vote.
As would voting 'Yes' be under the same circumstances.
I don't think the 'Yes' vote benefitted from it though.
If you are abroad, like I am, and following the news of Lisbon's rejection, then sit back and enjoy it's official burial at about 3pm Irish time (that's any minute now). Here is the link:
http://www.rte.ie/live/
The Polish Prime Minister has stated that Ireland's rejection does not disqualify the Treaty. He stated earlier that the EU will find ways to revitalise it.
Some Polish coverage of the rejection (1st one in English):
http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/foreign-affairs/?id=...84708
http://www.dziennik.pl/swiat/article190926/Irlandia_mow....html
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80269,5309477,....html
From an Irishman abroad I would just like to say I am SO FECKIN HAPPY yez have voted NO to this disgrace of a treaty. Now, THAT's democracy... are ye listening politicians??!!
This is a great day for Ireland and the other 99% of our brothers and sisters in Europe who were denied the right to vote on this failed piece of legislature
Great week - Raytheon 9 acquitted, Eu Treaty shot down by 10 o clock this morning...one hour into the count ...
...and the US are under pressure to get out of Iraq because there mandate is running out ( not that they ever had one in the first place)
but they are trying to circumvent this as it is being declared by the Iraqi 'government ' to be un-constitutional.
Im off to france to night to celebrate with our comrades over there and ill write it up if there is anything to report.......
Great work on the no vote. I wouldnt sow any illusions that this is democracy though, the parameters of debate are still defined by bourgeois politics. Europe or Ireland, regulation or free trade, sovereignty or federation. While you celebrate remember that so are Libertas and Coir, we have a lot of organising to do.
Tune into RTE radio now to listen to the typical arrogant rage from the usual cozy elite panel our state broadcaster is so fond of
No no no no, no no THERE'S NO LISBON!
Not since the Dark Ages has the Republic of Ireland ever performed so well.
All we need to do now, is to "keep our eye on the ball" at all times -- to make certain sure that the "Bully Boys/Girls & Liars of The World" never come this close to absolute victory again.
Congrats to everyone who put in the work on the ground for the No, especially to the guys who spent Monday Tuesday and Wednesday on O'Connell Street!
You have to laugh listening to RTE or Newstalk giving out about our "spurious arguments" and talk of "conscription" and how embarassed Cowen will be in Europe next week. Even after they've lost they won't deal with the real issues.
They're on the backfoot now, keep up the pressure for demilitarization and democracy!
Happy days!!! The no vote (most likely) won!! Lets hope it doesn't end here. Lets get off our arse's demand a more equal society, a fairer health system, more accountable Government, better use of our countries resources, taxes etc... People have the power now let us use it. We might be a small country, a small population and a small island but unlike our political electorate who would "roll over" to the bigger nations, we the people showed that we matter, we have being heard and today we made them remember that although Government (supposedly) is for the people by the people, it does not run the people....
Anyways Party anyone?? :-)
Merci to French NO-iste for that link to Marianne. (J'ai lu cette revue quelquefois: on peut l'acheter en Easons bookshop en O'Connell Street). Here's just one blog response from a french reader of Marianne to the news of the No vote:
"31. Posté par Anne le 13/06/2008 16:07
Bravo au Irlandais qui vengent les français du déni de démocratie commis par N. Sarkozy ( aidé de quasiment toute la classe politqiue française...) quand il a fait adopter par voie parlementaire le traité repoussé par voie référendaire !
Il est peut-être temps que les médias permettent que le réel débat éclose: les peuples sont-ils d'accord pour renoncer à leur souveraineté nationale au profit d'une instance supra-nationale qui prend ses décisions sur le mode diplomatique? La construction européenne peut-elle être autre que ce qu'elle est, c'est-à-dire une construction institutionnelle qui met en oeuvre le déploiement du libéralisme?
Si l'Euope eput être autre, si elle peut être sociale, posons les conditions sur la table pour rester en son sein ! Notre Europe sera sociale ou ne sera pas !
Un mouvement propose d'agir en ce sens. C'est là : [http://www.m-pep.org/spip.php?article601
http://www.m-pep.org "
Get out yer dictionnaires if you want to read that. Basically Anne says Bravo to the Irish who avenged the denial of democracy by Sarkozy to the French voters. She hopes for a real media debate on the issue of national sovereignty around Europe and its possible takeover by a supernational procedure that would take decisions in a diplomatic manner (?) She then supplies a link to a movement that campaigns for a social Europe.
The Marianne blog carries lots of other thank-you greetings.
Here's what former Irish Times journalist Conor O'Clery says in an article in the Washington Post:
"Opponents of the treaty in Europe cheered on the Irish ‘No” campaign, and British newspapers circulating in Ireland, like the Rupert Murdoch-owned Times, campaigned against ratification, leading to accusations from the “Yes” campaign that Britain's Eurosceptics were waging a proxy war in Ireland.
For the anti-EU Europeans, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, never has so much been done, by so few, for so many, as the Irish have scuppered a treaty which would likely have been rejected by the electorates of several other member countries. "
See the full article here- http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/needtokno....html
We should nail a corny myth about Murdoch influence on Irish politics, though I hold no truck with the debilitating cultural influence of British tabloids in Ireland.
Barrosa has spoken that since 18 nations have already ratified the Treaty in their national parliaments or by referendum that the remaining 18 will also do so.
The Treaty of course cannot be fully ratified without the consent of the Irish people so obviously the EU will encourage a re-run of the referendum just as the Nice Treaty was accepted after a second ballot.
The blame game has started and the YES camp have identified several factors
1) The Fianna Fail leadership saga diverted attention from Lisbon.
2) The short period of campaigning by the YES camp up in the run up to the vote.
3) The threat by the IFA to encourage its members to vote NO if Ireland did not exercise its NO veto.
4) Accusations by the Fianna Fail that the other oppostion parties were not campaigning enthusiastically enough.
5) Failure to dispell "lies" peddled about loss of control over tax and military neutrality from the NO camp.
It is quite clear therefore that the YES camp will launched a re-run.
Le Monde also had a similar story about the influence of the murdoch press in the no campaign. I dont agree with their analysis. Their main story on the non vote has 105 posts on its blog to date more than half of which are backing the Irish vote. and congratulating us.
There's also some real anger being expressed as we are the only country blocking lisbon.
Ring up RTE to complain that they are in no position to have 'experts' tell us why WE voted No, when their cosy panel are yes men and yes women, and they are trotting out rubbish.
RTE News
01-2082177
newsdesk@rte.ie
DriveTime with Mary Wilson 01-2082275
drivetime@rte.ie
And for the next Joe Duffy show, get the real reasons out on the air.
Joe Duffy /Liveline
1850715815 (lo-call number)
joe@rte.ie
Tonight with Vincent Browne
tonightvb@rte.ie
01-2083267
Marion Finucane 01-2082982
Gerry Ryan Show
Mail the newspapers (bombard them with e-mails)
Thanks a lot to have voted 'No' for all of us in europe !
Tonight I will drink a guiness to celebrate this victory !
Merci mille fois, amis irlandais
Ils ont prive 495 millions de citoyens europeens de referendum
Ils ont meprise les peuples, ils ont vote a notre place
Ils ont voulu faire l'Europe sans le peuple
Aujourd'hui, vous leur avez donné la raclee, qu'ils meritaient !
J'espere qu'ils auront compris que nous voulons une Europe SOCIALE !!!
Que nous ne voulons plus de leur Europe du fric et des patrons
Que nous NE VOULONS PAS de leur Europe soumise a l'OTAN et donc aux USA
Ce n'est qu'un debut, il va encore falloir se battre et resister, on reparle deja de vous faire revoter...
On saura bientot de quelle façon ils vont essayer de nous fermer la gueule....
MERCI MERCI MERCI
Further to my brief note above,
YAAAAAAAHOOOOOOO!!!!!
Here are a few of Chantal's french comments (see above) translated:
'They've deprived 495 European citizens of a referendum They've despised the peoples and voted in our place. They've wanted to build a Europe without its people. Today you [Irish] have given them the rebuff they merited. I hope they've now understood that we want a social Europe!'
Merci Chantal. Bonne chance.
Some on the YES side are already calling for another referendum.
If they want to have another one, let them have one in France, followed by one in Holland, Germany, and all the other EU countries that were denied a voice by their parliaments. (thankfully we had Raymond Crotty, or we would have been in the same situation)
The arrogance of these people knows no bounds.
.
People Before Profit - No to Lisbon!
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/06/13/ireland.....html
People Before Profit on CNN.com!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Democracy: 53.4%
Despotism: 46.6%
Good work chaps.
As I read your referendum results, I hear our Jean Claude Juncker´s comment on RTL (Luxembourg Radio): "we have to respect the Irish vote, and GO ON with the ratification in ALL the other member states". Their arrogance has not changed a bit! Irish friends, thank you for saving democracy for a while in Europe. You did what Athens did in Marathon and Salamis. You made a powerful enemies among the establishment, and millions of friends among the democrats of Europe. Congratulations!
Hi All !
A major upset for the establishment here and in Brussels . Well done!
Our wee contribution -
http://11sixtynine.blogsome.com/2008/06/13/lisbon-const...ated/
Thanks!
Sharon.
'X' marks a proud 'NO'-body !
Well done Ireland! Those of us in the UK who have not been able to express our opposition to this assault on our democracy thank you.
There is a dam of the language(tongue) but the Irish people are warmly congratulated. That they are not allowed impressed by the politics(policies) and their sales pitch. (pas mal la traduction de ces deux lignes, par http://www.reverso.net/text_translation.asp?lang=FR ! )
http://bellaciao.org/fr/spip.php?article67573
(Some body is asking help to choose whiskey : 13 juin 2008 - 18h10 - Posté par 83.***.179.***)
During time you are all here ! Here are videos, for people speaking french.
A translation of TCE-Lisbon treaty. (Tommy, in case you find original things that you are able to translate ? :-) )
http://bellaciao.org/fr/spip.php?article60244
There are videos from Raoul Marc JENNAR. He is a researcher in policy.
He had to go and work in Asia, because, in France, he told his ideas. This, in particular, about Treaty and GM(in French = OGM ... from Monsanto).
Waiting Guinnesses getting colder... and match.
:-)
Brilliant to see the Irish electorate still have a bit of fight in them. Also good to see that the libertas factor (tax) wasn't an integral reason as to why the No vote won. Remember though Libertas, Youth Defence and some in parties like the Immigration Control Platform are also celebrating tonight. Keep the No posters though we'll probably need them again in a few months.
On RTÉ; when their commentators use phrases such as "so what went wrong" you can tell what side of the fence they are on, if you needed to know.
were on the rite track bring on the next elections in the south. Adams for teeshockt......up the RA.
Ogra abo.
RSF applaud no vote
Irish people say no to EU power grab
Statement by the Vice President of Republican Sinn Féin Des Dalton
The Irish people have clearly and unequivocally said no to a power grab by the EU political elite by their rejection of the Lisbon Treaty/EU Constitution. The clear message given by the Irish people is that they reject the construction of an undemocratic EU superstate. The people have spoken and must not be ignored unlike the first Nice referendum in the 26 Counties or the French and Dutch referenda in 2005 which rejected the EU Constitution – the Lisbon Treaty and the EU Constitution are 96% the same document.
A clear marker has been laid down to the Dublin and Brussels political establishments. The Irish people are not prepared to give over more power to an institution which they do not elect and which is not accountable to them. Three times in three years the people of three states have now said no to a militarised and unaccountable EU superstate.
What also emerges from the referendum result is that a gulf has grown between the Dublin political establishment and the mass of the people. The line taken by the main 26-County political parties throughout the referendum campaign was that people need not understand the Lisbon Treaty or its implications but merely trust them in recommending its acceptance. The resounding rejection of Lisbon shows the people do not trust them.
Ends.
www.rsf.ie
Dun Laoghaire is the area where Richard Boyd Barrett SWP was campaigning and it had a Yes vote of 63.5% but in Cork North Central where Councillor Mick Barry SP was campaigning it had a 64.4% No vote - says it all really!
I voted no to Lisbon but my no vote was NOT a vote for Sinn Fein, Socialists and other wingnuts.
This referendum pushed on the people of Ireland was almost doomed to fail anyway.
What has come from this is a broad alliance of like minded people who for as many reasons as their number, have voted against this constitution and rejected it.
To start claiming the victory on behalf of some political party or organosation will be our first mistake and it will not be the first time either.
The conclusions of this success must be drawn upon and realised for the greater good of all.
this victory should be used to educate and not indoctrinate, after all half of the congratulations on this thread come from our european brothers and sisters. It is not a victory for one or a group, if this is where it will end up the victory will be a hollow one.
Dont squander it to gain a few new members into your party.
we canvised on the doorsteps and swung it the way of NO what did the terrerists of rira do nothing except talk
Ogra abo
Great day for democracy.
Hope all you guys can keep on giving it to the bullies - right up the ass.
Can we refer to yesterday as the Glorious Twelfth?
Friday 13th June, 2008: PD posters in the Grand Canal by Leeson Street Bridge
Maybe we can vote no on the second round, as no doubt democracy wont be allowed when the result doesnt please the magesterium in Brussels and Dail Eireann. Maybe, just maybe we will vote no again and then they might listen to us....
At least 1-0 is a start, delighted. Hope for 2-0 and we WIN for once!
Beir bua muintir na hEireann, ta athas MOR agaimm anois,
slan go leoir,
Seamus
In every single interview I have heard since that treaty was binned by the people of Ireland Yesterday I have heard the exact same line from the Suits who tried to stick it to us.
" We had to fight against the lies of the NO Side about Conscription, Abortion, Euthenasia, and so on. "
I've listened to every debate and read every coherent article from either side which addressed the issue and not once do I ever remember anybody claiming that there would be Abortion Conscription or anything of the likes. Today is the first day I heard that crap and it all from the Yes Side telling me why I voted wrong.
Well I'd just like to say : "Up yours and take your medicine like big boys".
Irish and Proud !!!
On the 23rd of June,a private contractor will dispose of 15kg of Hydrogen Cyanide on the land of the Kilbride Army Camp in the Dublin/Wicklow Mountains. This land is in the catchment of the Blessington Lakes, Dublin's main water supply, and within 10 miles of Dublin City Centre. The Kilbride Army Camp borders a Special Area of Conservation.
The Hydrogen Cyanide is being disposed of on behalf of Rentokill and South Dublin County Council, but rather then sending the toxic waste for incineration in a chemical incinerator, they intend to attach an explosive charge to the canisters, in a manner that would appear to be 'dispersal' rather than disposal.
The Army will establish a 1km exclusion zone around the site, and will request that locals vacate their homes for up to a week, and are requesting that grazing animals be removed from the mountains for an unspecified amount of time. Within the exclusion zone there is a commercial salmon hatchery that depends on the pristine water conditions of the Shankill River, a tributary of the River Liffey.
All locals families are opposed to this plan, and would ask why is this disposal/dispersal of toxic waste being done in such a manner in such an unsuitable location. Why is the water supply of a million people being endangered in this way? Why is the toxic waste not being sent for proper disposal?
I beg you to help in anyway you can to draw attention to this plan.
Link to Media.
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/safety-fears-over-cy....html
Judging by the comments now coming from the so called "establishment" in the wake of their ball-busting defeat, they really do seem to have a huge problem with the ballot box.
They're great at "talking the talk" about democracy, but they can't "walk the walk".
They're also in denial about this fact - so that it's this, it's that, it's something else, and everybody other than themselves is to blame for the "disappointing" result.
Anything to avoid the real issue - which is that of getting the consent of the people, through the ballot box, before they arrogantly decide they know what's best for everybody regarding major issues such as the Lisbon Treaty.
Seems like the main reason for the no result was ignorance and uncertainty with regard to the content of the treaty, which suggests that the biggest problem is the obfuscatory nature of the document.
I voted yes, having changed my mind in the last week. I do not regard the no vote as "disastrous" for Ireland or for Europe, but it seems obvious to me that the EU needs reform (most importantly with regard to measures allowing effective action on climate change). The sinner notion that Ireland can now "re-negotiate for a better deal" is completely delusional, in my opinion.
Someone proposed a campaign of civil disobedience in the event of a second plebiscite. This seems radical and unsensible to me; wouldn't it make more sense, in the context of a democracy, to embark on a campaign for more voters and a more informed electorate? I don't see what's so outrageous about another referendum, as everyone is free to vote no again, if they wish.
Finally, and not truly relevant, I have noted that every comment thus far has been laudatory of the no result. It is disappointing to see such little diversity of perspective on a supposedly independent news site.
this is a victory for the individuals who voted no for their own reasons. the result cut across party lines and is urban and rural . the highest no vote came from working class constituencies which were not expected to vote. yaay. long may this trend continue.
the establishment has started spinning and there are things to do.
1 find out exactly why people voted no.
2.demand a referendum in every EU state if the EU insists in going ahead instead of admitting that the EU constitution is dead.
3. after the referenda and/or if it's admiited the constitution is dead the people must decide directly what kind of EU they want. this must take into account all no voters not just the ones who voted for the 'right' reasons. public forums and assemblies may be the best way, non state organized of course. This is also being suggested by ATTAC Gemany and Austria and Democracy Europe.
There's a chink in the illusion and it's wide open. we need to organize right now before the spin doctors make up what the results mean.
their tendency will be to talk to the 'leaders' of the No campaign that they are most comfortable with, maybe Libertas, trade unionists, coir etc. and ignore the unreformables. we have to make sure that ignoring us is not a possiblility.
yaaaay!!!
liz
All photos (c) Michael Gallagher, (except number 20 of Stan Laurel)
1. Dublin count begins....
2. First Tally....
4. Eddie Conlon (PBP) and Joe Kelly (CAEUC)....
5. Victory count....
...
Tally text. Eugene McCartan (People's Moverment)
7. It surely is. Finian McGrath (Independent TD)
8.Losers from the finally fail party.
9.Yes, it's more NOs.
10. NO hammer meeded.
....
11. Tea and Sinn pithy. (Roisin Shorthall (Labour Party)...Sinn Féin talking to media.
12. 11. Ya wha gay? Gay Mitchells wife....where's gay?
12. No free ride
14. Losers getting an ear bashing from a 'leader'.
14. The result...NO > 862,415 = 53.4%....Yes > 752,451 = 46.4%
we said no, no, no,
...
SinnFéin and People Before Profit celebrate with others.
Patricia McKenna (GP) with Goldhawk.
PBP
Joe Higgins (SP) and Richard Boyd-Barrett (PBF)
NO more mister Nice guy.
Doesn't he look the part? Another fine mess..... :-)
As an englishman living in Cork City, I would like to thank the people of Ireland for what they have done today. A smack in the mouth for the so called elite. They will be crying into their MOET tonight (which they bought for the celebration of handing Ireland to the impoverished capitalist class). Well dont let it go to waste lads, there are a load of council estates that will put it to good use tonight. What this has shown is that it was not just against the lisbon treaty, this vote was also about the ongoing class struggle. And today THEY got a kicking.
a beautıful week ın ıreland (raytheon 9, lısbon NO) and a sıgnal to all the enemıes of democracy and fellow fascısts, totalıtarians,etc... who all voted yes; through sheer ıgnorance ın belıevıng polıtıcıans ın what they saıd or whatever your reasons were........we the people of ıreland saıd no....our government( non elected representatıves also; brian cowen, the taoiseach of democratıc ıreland) should now lısten to us rather than blame us...the cıtızens of europe who hadno vote ın a decişion ın what would have effected them more than we (hopefulle) wıll ever know, thank us greatly.....
heres to democracy raısıng its ugly head again...
THANK YOU, Irland for you vote!!!!!! Thank you for NO!!!
;)
To German friend who thanked us I say - Wir haben fuer eine demokratische Europa gewahlt. Danke Deutscher Freund und gute Nacht. Prost! Oppenheimer schmeckt, und Spatenbrau auch.
congratulations to all those who campaigned against a europe of the elites.
may we live to see the day when their banks and bulldozed are burnt, their tanks torched and their mansions and factories reclaimed for us.
against the bosses! up the proles!
The Workers Party have said that the Irish government must not attempt to sign away the verdict of the Irish people in the Lisbon Treaty referendum.
The party’s campaign director in the referendum, Padraig Mannion, called on Taoiseach Brian Cowen and others in the defeated Yes campaign to stop talking simultaneously out of both sides of their mouths, saying on the one hand that they respect the decision of the people, but on the other hand seeking, without even pause for reflection, to renegotiate the treaty.
“What defeated the Lisbon Treaty more than anything else was the arrogance of the Yes campaign which decided that it knew better than the Irish people and would bring in the renamed EU Constitution no matter what the people thought. That arrogance has not stopped with yesterday’s humiliating defeat for the Yes side. They have learned nothing from their defeat and are now intent on overturning the democratic decision of the sovereign Irish people”, said Mr. Mannion.
The Workers’ Party spokesman said that the triumph of the No side belonged to no single group or party in the campaign and that primarily it was the people’s victory, not just the Irish people, but the people of all the European Union. “We have had the debate on the Lisbon Treaty, it is dead and the European Commission and Irish government would be making a grave mistake to attempt to revive it again”, he said.
“The European Union Constitution / Lisbon Treaty has now been rejected firmly by the citizens of three member states. Instead of seeing the Irish referendum result as an aberration or mistake that needs to be rectified, this result should be a cause for reflection and prolonged debate throughout the European Union outside of the heat of a referendum. Instead of flying to Brussels next week to apologise for the way the Irish people voted, the government should stand by Thursday’s decision. The people have spoken – they should be listened to”, said Padraig Mannion.
united Europe could be a real global player, more powerful like the USA, with the possibility to change the most importent things like human rights......but the most auf the irisch peopel think that´s it better to stay and play in the kindergarden....ok let´s play and leave the power to find decisions to USA, China, UDSSR, Pakistan and Israel. We have to get together if we don´t want to be the shit of a fly.
Is there some thing more silly than the Irisch No Campain?
Please tell me!
Benjamin
Off the top of my head, the only thing I can think of more silly than the No campaign are your naive comments.
Roll on the revolution!!
How did the Yes side lose, they had absolutely everything going for them , and more, much more... Joe Stalin Higgins, Richard Trotsky Boyd Barrett, Good Looking Roger Cole - and, argh, The Shirkers Party funded by forged hundred dollar bills, how could the Yes Campaign have possibly failed...
What they Yes side had -
Brian "Napoleon" Cowen, Enda "Marcel Marceaux" Kenny, Eamon "I can only think of two reasons" Gilmore, Eoin "I'm in the money" Ryan, John Gormless and the "Free" press, Millions more money spent, no facts.
You lose.
Socialist Party leader Joe Higgins said that while there had been different aspects to the 'No' campaign, people opposed the idea of an EU being run by a "round table of industrialists".
"The internationalisation of the armaments industry is a big issue with the Irish people and it is quite clear that the exploitation of workers was as well," he said.
After giving interviews to journalists in Dublin Castle in English, Irish and French, he condemned the Labour party for supporting the treaty as "part of the camp of the capitalist market" and also attacked the pro-treaty trade unions.
Enamoured
"The trade union leadership have got far too enamoured of doing deals with Government and the bosses for 21 years behind closed doors. They should come out and listen to what their membership is saying for a change now," he said.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lisbon-treaty/r....html
A great result. The camoflaged coup has been defeated, for now. What a happy day I'm having! The establishment response is ungracious, predictable and very entertaining.
To Timothy - advocate of the treaty - what is outrageous about having another referendum is that the electorate have already voted on the issue. If the result had been "yes", do you think it would be ok to have another vote? The only other referenda needed are in all the other E.U. countries.
If you are disappointed with the diversity of views, I suggest you take that up with the "yes" voters. Indymedia IS an independent news site.
As others above have already said , the work has only just begun and it is necessary to prepare for the next attempt by the political elite to browbeat us into submission.
Great day for democracy. I hope that european leaders will respect your voice and your choice.
Thanks to all of you who voted no! People on the continent just had not the chance to do anything... Greetings from Germany and - again - thanks***
All activists should know that there is a new order to things now. The UK and the French Governments will now likley have to put it to the people to vote on this three thies failed treaty.
The yessere are saying that it is because people were scared into thinking that we were endorsinc conscription amongst a pile of other rediculous rantings.
I think our brothers and sisters in Europe will thank the Irish people for decades to come for stopping this totalitarian dictatorship style government proposed to us in the guise of a democratic document and we all saw through it.
Well done to all and as we celebrate remember they are doing pushups. There not gone away.
This victory must be claimed as a victory for the people of and for a Europe of the future.
Slainte to alll
thank you and bravo to the Irish people!
be not allowed to say that you understood nothing: it is the policies which consist of nothing!
Three cheers for Ireland!
uen French citizen.
I hope you're right to be celebrating....if this result makes the eu more democratic and helps to defend the rights of all the people of europe and beyond then I will be delighted and I will admit I made a bad mistake voting yes.i have a terrible fear that many people on the left have helped to secure a nationialistic and eurosceptic victory.I hope i'm wrong............
This Le Monde blog carries many messages of thanks from citizens in France. Here is just one typical post by a French resident:
"Merci chers amis Irlandais! L'Europe n'est pas morte, au contraire elle s'affirme. Merci chers amis Irlandais de me faire persévéré à croire en la démocratie. Ce texte de Lisbonne est à 80% similaire avec le TCE rejeté en France et au Pays-Bas en 2005. Merci chers amis Irlandais de me laisser rêver à une Europe au service des citoyens et non l'inverse. Merci chers amis Irlandais de monter que l'Europe c'est avant tout la paix social, le bonheur et l'amélioration de la qualité de vie de tous..."
[Dear Irish friends, Europe isn't dead, au contraire it affirms itself. Thank you Irish friends for making me persevere in believing in democracy... Thank you dear Irish friends for showing that Europe is above all social peace, the happiness and improvement in the quality of life of all..."]
Link here:- http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/reactions/0,1-0@2-3214,36-1057657@45-16,0.html
We should be ashamed. An unholy alliance of left and right defeated the best treaty available without presenting a viable alternative. The victory of the no vote is hollow and brings Ireland's people nowhere. It is an absolute misapprehension to suggest that we can negotiate a better deal. From here, we vote again or we continue outside the EU. Losing the many benefits that brings. These certainly are uncharted waters that we enter. Jobs will suffer; Ireland ability to guide policy will suffer. Remember, Irish diplomacy in Europe is successful in bringing many things to the fore that would otherwise be forgotten. See EU policy on human rights defenders or Ireland's small guiding voice on the NPT and disarmament more generally. See the ban on cluster munitions. Without Ireland's central voice our strong footing in these ongoing debates is undermined. In a global age we cannot act alone. As for a socialist alternative, it is simply not viable. All we can hope is to soften the tides of history. If, for example, the socialist alternative was presented by a group of serious players it could have a decent shot. Ireland is not that. We are a peripheral country with a small population - we do the best we can.
On the right, we were presented with outright lies and jingoistic scaremongering. See the 'No to Foreign Rule' signs. This is a victory for small-mindedness, nationalism and isolation. Welcome to the 1950's.
" L'isle d'Ecosse sera un luminaire et mettra les anglois en déconfiture..." (Michel de Nostredame)
L' Ecosse n'a jamais été une ile. L'Irlande (l'Ulster) est par contre une ile de l'Ecosse...
La France du "non" ne vous laissera pas tomber !
Merci au peuple irlandais ! ! ! ! ! !
These French voices will leave us behind in some nightmarish isolation while they continue to harvest the benefits of the European project. These are the powerless, these are the dispossessed. They have no political voice; they can not defend our interests in any meaningful way. Accept their praise with scepticism. They will hang us out to dry for the advancement of their interests. They want an example, but not them. Their great nation will continue to be central to all European debate, while we become a more irrelevant backwater.
To all the French comments above, I say va te faire enculer.
I would like to express my deepest gratitude and respect for the leaders of Sinn Féin, to the leaders of Libertas and to professor Anthony Coughlan (National Platform), who first warned us that the "boots of Lisbon are gonna walk all over us”; to Mr. Jens-Peter Bonde, Mr. Nigel Farage and to all EU representatives and journalists whose insights and persistent work inspired all of us to take a stand to defend our freedom. They have helped the voters of Ireland and the abandoned voters of the other EU-countries to understand the real threat the current EU-leadership is imposing on Europe.
Similarly, I would like to say thank you to all the NO campaign-groups, and, most of all, to the Irish voters who understood the call of history and voted against Lisbon: we are all eternally grateful for your admirable wisdom and courage.
'Sinn Féin, to the leaders of Libertas and to professor Anthony Coughlan (National Platform), who first warned us that the "boots of Lisbon are gonna walk all over us”; to Mr. Jens-Peter Bonde, Mr. Nigel Farage and to all EU representatives and journalists'
Quite a motley crew. But you're right on one point: Murdoch and his bought journos will love this result.
Please, don't mix up Sarko and French people !
Sarko has no notion of french values. He is a casting error ! A losted houser appliances vendor without honnor.
French people hope best for everybody and respect Irish nation like other nation.
When you tell "no", they specially love you and eat and drink Irish specialities ! You save them and save a big part of World !
Problem is language roadblock.
English is not so easy. I write very slowly with a dictionary.
[And I don't know the result ! ...from your point of view !!! :-D]
Main problem is to know what to do, now ?
See you later ! :-)
i am a french man....congratulation for your "NO"!!!
nous sommes avec vous! the french people his with you!!!!!
courage!
Congratulations to the Irish people!
First of all to their Constitution - that made them the only nation in Europe where a democratic decision making of the whole nation had to be counted with in a referendum of an issue of that importance. The other 99% of Europe was deprived of that right.
Then: to the final result - you saved the hope for democracy to survive in Europe - at least for a while!
Be proud of your victory and do not give in to compromises and deragulation, etc.
As cited in the Hungarian media (hvg), the president of the Chech republic , Václav Klaus, welcomed the final result as " the victory of liberty and reason above the artifical projects of the elite and the European burocracy".
The good news is that they will the next in presiding over the EU.
Has it not occured to many that Irish euroskepticism was mis-placed? Ireland is not in Shengen. Sarkozy and Berlusconi are pushing a new Shengen agreement to control migration in Europe. The principle stumbling block for that plan which has seen the pogroms of Italy, was in fact the Lisbon treaty. If perhaps Irish people had voted No! to their local capitalist governments and ended either the FF or FG options, or removed Harney - then they'd deserve congratulations. But fact is - their decision (hardly democratic) supported by Irish anarchists means less freedom of movement of the poorest on this continent. They have handed over the development of western Balkans to the worst species of capitalist pig.
Maith na eireanach gan amhras! You had no real neutrality on Thursday and you didn't save it yesterday. You have no more sovreignty today than you did last Wednesday. Be proud. Be very proud. Go to work and tell your colleagues you did your bit to keep Albanians and Romanians in their place. Needless to say, one has to go to other indymedia sites to read informed analysis on why anarchists should have kept out of the referendum debate. It's bad enough to ignore the plight of the poorest - It's worse to add to it.
.
.
that same graffiti accompanies an article I've just read on why anarchists in Ireland made a tactical mistake by supporting the Libertas agenda. All you need to do is look at the people whose freedom of movement under Lisbon has now been lost.
you have enough freedom of movement to walk on by.
Posters on the railings of Dublin Castle where the results of the referendum was announced.
Says it all really
A contender for best poster of the campaign?
United States of Europe?
Bienvenue à Indymedia Irlande!
Belle journee n'est-ce pas?
Fuck Sarko
Get Rich or Die Tryin
How de fuck do ya militarise da irish Army ?
So, the so-called "progressive left" in Ireland has helped to victory a combination of fascist Catholics (Coir), anti-European US militarism (Libertas) and regressive nationalism (Sinn Fein). Let's see how "neo-liberal" the new Ireland of Coir and Libertas set adrift from Europe will _really_ be.
I hope you are proud of yourselves.
Where is that 'NO TO LISBON' graffiti piece?
There were plenty of valid reasons to oppose Lisbon, to the people above.
Should Labour be ashamed for being on the same side as the PDs?
Well done to all who went out and voted, for the HALF BILLION with no say.
"that same graffiti accompanies an article I've just read on why anarchists in Ireland made a tactical mistake".
The photo you cite above is from a New York Times online news articule???
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/world/europe/14irelan....html
On the back of our No Victory, and full of praise and love for Ireland and the Irish, the British Conservative Party has officially demanded, and will move in Parliament, for a referendum on Lisbon for the people of the U.K.
The Irish Left were bamboozled into campaigning against the Lisbon Treaty. On balance we were right to oppose Lisbon Mark One. But only just.
The Charter of Fundamental Human Rights ye voted down would have resulted in the granting of the Right to Choose to Irish Women, the Right to Marriage to Gay People, the Right to Euthanasia to Oldies like myself facing death, indeed all fundamental rights that Coir are bitterly opposed to, and that we will never get in Ireland without Lisbon.
And we have new friends who love us dearly such as the British Tories, UKIP, BNP, NF etc etc.
As soon as we get the Commissioner Clauses, The Weighting Clauses, the Military Spending Clauses etc renegotaiated, we must vote Yes for Lisbo Mark Two, thus help our 5000 women travelling to the UK for abortions every year, and -
LOSE OUR NEW-FOUND FRIENDS, PRONTO !!!
God(?) knows how much I love you and your country.
Today, though, I feel very sad :
your "NO" delights USA and their English poodle,
who FEAR a strong and united Europe.
Sure, this treaty is far from perfect, but IT EXISTS.
As Churchill put it ( the first partisan of a strong Europe, remember?) talking about El Alamein :
This is not the end ( of Nazis, then, today of European weakness),
This is not even the beginning of the end,
but this might be the end of the beginning.
In France, each and every gross character who, for utterly different and often opposite reasons, was against the treaty, is happy :
Europe is glued.
Look who's delighted, in France :
Le Pen, De Villiers, Buffet, Bezancenot, Mélanchon, Dupont Aignan.
Try and find one single good reason they share : NONE!
I do not thank you, my Irish friends :
2 millions voters, for mainly selfish reasons,
said NO to a treaty THEY DID NOT EVEN READ.
Thus, they have put 480 millions Europeans' hopes in a dustbin.
Bravo!!!
I Think I shall go angling Scotish fish, from now on.
To those who voted NO because they're afraid UE would now
cost Ireland money :
You got enough from UE.
Now, thanks to Europe, you're a rich man, baby!
Then, times have come for YOU to CONTRIBUTE !
What do you think?
UE is no RED CROSS.
One way or the other, you shall GIVE !
Mark my words.
Like i said, id report on the general feeling in france to our big no on lisbon
They are thrilled, not just french but q cross section of everyone weve met so far and we know absolutely no one here so theres no obvious link to a social:political grouping=just people randome,
it was &oclo arriving and its only about &à in the morning nox more later
La publique francaise est plein de joie, Paul. Just go to the blogs attached to the french newspapers. Give us a few links when you get the time. Are there any English language sites where expats and french citizens leave messages and exchange views?
Does anybody know what blog reactions are like in Germany, in Holland or in Italy?
Surely there are a couple of linguists friendly to indymedia who could help us out here at this interesting moment?
in a 53% turnout just over 53% of the population voted no, not to the EU but to a specific treaty. in a democracy that is our right. how dare anybody tell us that that is the 'wrong' result. the EU heads of state who want to press forward with ratification are showing anyone who didn't realize it that there's is a vision that does not include the people of the EU. our 'representatives' are not remotely interested in what we think. now it's time to take it back to the people. what kind of EU do we want? tthe most important thing is to find out exactly why people voted and what they want. to say that this would be difficult to do is ridiculous. widespread polls are one way. the second step is for the people of each EU country to directly vote, either on this treaty if they insist on going forward with it, or better, on the alternative that is put forward. if the treaty is further rejected the alternative has to come directly from the people. yes it will be messy, yes the right will have their own agenda. just as the left does. and all the people in between. that's democracy folks.
the EU constitution has been rejected for the third time. it's dead. yes there are alternatives. many social protections were left out of the treaty because the biggest agenda was free trade. now they'll have to have a rethink on what kind of 'compromise' they tried to sell us. our vote has opened up an opportunity to debate the direction the EU is taking. that should be welcomed by everyone. people voted no for their own reasons as they have the right to in a democracy. that's one of the reasons i campaigned for a no and it's laughable being told i was duped into helping the right. have a little confidence in your strength and don't overestimate the small right wing constituency. there's a lot of work to do for everyone to get their ideas out. the only way those ideas will all be from the right is if you don't get organized right now!
this was not a xenophobic or right christian or narrowly nationalist vote. from all the people i talked to in the run up it was clear that people were strongly no, understood the issues and that the highest % of no votes came from working class districts where people weren't expected to vote. elites are furious because the 'wrong' people voted. what they're saying is that socialists, workers, farmers, fishermen , peace activists, everyone who felt bullied or doesn't trust their 'representatives' the working class and assorted 'far left' and far right' don't have the right to vote! so who does have the right? experts? irish times commentators, educated professionals, D4? this result was not a mistake ior a matter of being duped. it was a show of strength by people who have not often gotten involved in politics before and long may they stay involved. we can do better. Be brave, stay with it, counter the spin and congratulations!
Congratulations to the no camp for sticking a spanner in the works, with limited resources but plenty of
energy you took on the puppet political class of europe and sent them packing. To read the outpourings of bile
and insult from the so called liberal press (Will Hutton, Fintan o'Toole etc) is proof enough that you have done
a good job. Well done from london sorry I was not there to be part of it.
there's quite a fearful response to the No result coming from some people. this is understandable. we have often felt weak in the past in the face of a free trade, corporate juggernaut that said it was working for us and managed to make profit the only criteria of success. so it's reasonable to worry that the same people who brought us this treaty will renegotiate it and that the result could be worse. the alternative is that every person who voted make it publicly clear why and what their vote meant in any way they can. the spin that we voted on lies or misunderstandings has started and has to be countered. it's time to represent yourself. possibilities are getting on local radio & newspapers, community stations, getting in touch with local TDs etc. demanding thst they respect the result, organizing neighbourhood and workplace meetings, whatever you can do. organized groups are going to tell the govt what it all means. make sure your voice is heard. you're the only one who can.
:)
Fake Jake (Sun Jun 15, 2008 01:37) responding to "london irish" (Sat Jun 14, 2008 22:42)
"The photo you cite above is from a New York Times online news articule???"
No, that photo may have been published on the New York Times, and is probably an agency picture, but the article 'london irish' mentions is on the uk indymedia site.
There is a second photo with it. Not sure where that one came from, but the use of a picture portraying the Irish as pigs is definitely racist. Just like the old days, eh?, when the likes of Princess Margaret could openly call the Irish "Pigs"..
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401099.html?c=on...ments
The ultra right wing German Neo Nazi Party, the NPD, that RTE lunchtime discussion tells us has congratulated Ireland on voting NO.
But then the German Neo Nazis would of course be in excellent relationship with Sinn Fein/IRA ever since WW 11.
Here is a readers' poll being conducted by Le Monde online since Saturday -
La victoire du "non" en Irlande vous paraît-elle représenter pour l'Union européenne…
… un coup dur.
43 %
… ou une chance pour un nouveau départ.
44 %
Ni l'un, ni l'autre.
10.9 %
Sans opinion.
2.1 %
Nombre de votants : 11851
For a 'quality' newspaper read by the enarques and other upper middle classes in France this response by almost twelve thousand readers so far shows that 43 per cent think the Irish no vote is a 'severe blow' to the EU while a slightly larger 44 per cent regard it as "an opportunity for a new departure". Our vote has the approval of many solid citizens. Ignore distracting quibbles about fringe fascists.
Hello,
In france , our gouvernment don't give us a chance to express our opinion about the lisbon treaty...
In 2005, i voted NO to the european constitutionnal treaty...
I want to say to the irish voters: Thank you very much for your NO
You saved the democratic spirit in UE :o)
http://www.dailymotion.com/related/x1aa29_monsanto-pur-...m=rss
Do you know this french movie ?
By way of response to Tommy's suggestion that indymedia-friendly linguists get info on Dutch, German and Italian blog reactions to the Irish No vote, here is an online poll on the German daily Die Welt -
Umfrage
Was sollte die EU machen, wenn die Iren die Reformen ablehnen?
abstimmen Ergebnis
5% Sofort Irland ausschließen
66% Den Lissabon-Vertrag überarbeiten
25% Die Reformen ohne Irland durchziehen
4% Irland erneut abstimmen lassen
Aktuell: 7023 Stimmen
< What should the EU do if the Irish reject the reform treaty?
5% throw Ireland immediately out of the EU
66% rework the Lisbon Treaty
25% go ahead with the reforms without Ireland
4% let Ireland have another referendum
Total votes to date: 7023 >
That's the score mid-afternoon on Sunday. Die Welt is a right-of-center sort of Irish Times 'serious' newspaper. Incidentally the same issue carries an article by Colm Toibin on the referendum. You can guess what attitude he takes. Toibin spent a couple of years living in Barcelona and wrote an informative book about the city. He speaks Spanish but dunno if he speaks German.
I did German in the Leaving and don't consider myself a linguist. Can any indymedia readers read La Stampa from Italy or El Pais from Spain? I'd be curious to know what bloggers are saying in those countries.
I'm wonding if the both newspapers (La Stampa, El Pais ) are where people go to debate.
Unless there is disinformation ? Or people are so busy by local problems, they don't make relation of them with UE ?
In France, lot of people are divided through lot of "little" worries.
Divide to reign, it's well-known.
(I am "wondering" and don't "wonding", I wanted to write in my precedent contribution.)
http://www.comedonchisciotte.org/site/modules.php?name=...=4718
If you want to translate, try this
http://www.reverso.net/text_translation.asp?lang=FR&dir...ncais
But take care of syntaxe !
Read by key words and cross your supposition with translations, words by word ! :- D:-D:-D
If not, I have wrote to them to ask them if they can give us, information.
Tommy ! It begins serious debate in Marianne !
http://peaceandsun.free.fr
Way to go Ireland. You made me proud of my half Irish heritage.
Here's an update on that online readers' poll in the french daily Le Monde. It shows at about 6 a.m. Monday that after 13,659 votes on the question opinions are the same as yesterday afternoon Sunday on french responses to the Irish referendum -
" La victoire du "non" en Irlande vous paraît-elle représenter pour l'Union européenne…
… un coup dur.
43.2 %
… ou une chance pour un nouveau départ.
43.8 %
Ni l'un, ni l'autre.
10.9 %
Sans opinion.
2.1 %
Nombre de votants : 13659 "
A small majority of readers, 43.8 %, believe the No result represents an EU opportunity "for a new departure" (whatever that may be). About 11% believe the result is neither a serious setback for the EU nor an opportunity for a new departure. Remember again that Le Monde is read by the enarque administrators and upper middle class professionals who form the creme-de-la-creme of modern France.
French NO-niste above:- Les sondages des lecteurs en Espagne et l'Italie peuvent aussi demontrer que l'opinion europeen n'est pas different que l'opinion de la publique irlandaise. Je crois firmement que nous ne sommes pas isole ici en Irlande. Alors je voudrais savoir qu'est-ce q'il passe parmi la publique en Espagne et lItalie.
[Trans: The opinion polls in Spain and Italy could also show that continental European public opinion is not different from its counterpart in Ireland. I strongly believe that we are not isolated here in Ireland. Therefore I'd like to know what's going on among the Spanish and Italian public.]
The latest issue of Le Monde carries an article on the resurgence of non-isme among french left and other political groups. Clearly several politicians are feeling a gathering groundswell against EU centralisation and crypto-federalism. On the left there is a desire to protect l'Europe sociale. Here are the opening sentences of that article;
# Trois ans après le "non" au traité constitutionnel européen, le vote des Irlandais prend, en France, une résonance particulière. "Je bois du petit-lait", avouait, vendredi 13 juin, le sénateur socialiste Jean-Luc Mélenchon, qui avait milité en 2005 pour le rejet du traité. Par l'intermédiaire de son association PRS (Pour une République sociale), le parlementaire est allé soutenir la campagne des "nonistes" irlandais. "Le moment est venu pour les dirigeants européens (...), qui viennent de prendre cette euro-gifle, d'admettre la défaite de leur modèle d'Europe libérale et non démocratique", a-t-il affirmé dans un communiqué. #
< Three years after the Non to the proposed EU Constitution, the Irish vote carries in France a special resonance. Socialist senator Jean-Luc Melenchon who campaigned in 2005 for the rejection of the Constitution, claimed on Friday 13 June to have drunk some dark stuff... 'The time has come for European leaders (...) ... to admit the defeat of their liberal and undemocratic model of Europe', he affirmed in a communique. >
Read that article: http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2008/06/14/a-un-an...32345
We've started a ball rolling, it seems.
Clearly, the YES side had a plan in place for a NO. - mass scaremongering through RTE, Pat Kenny, and hyping up unfounded fears of being kicked out of the EU.
Did the NO side have a plan in place for a victory? Maybe some of us did.
I hope we all keep going.
Find out why our friends and neighbours voted NO. Share info with each other. We can't hire a bill polling company, and the government doesn't want to find out the real reasons, they prefer to offer ridiculous explanations to tar the NO voters.
Let's bombard the media with e-mails and phone calls asking questions such as
"How can Cowen explain to Brussels why the Irish rejected the Treaty, when he wasn't listening to the NO voters?"
"Why should Ireland, or any EU country be held hostage to a Treaty, that we are told is mainly about reforming the EU, but includes pages and pages about market forces and privatisation and the military. Why didn't they just have a treaty about EU reform and nothing else?"
Call on our fellow Europeans to demand democracy in their countries. Pressure their governments to let the people decide on this rotten treaty, instead of a few who are already 'in the club'.
We should remember that were it not for one concerned citizen, we wouldn't even have had a referendum.
I say that from here on in June 12th is known as Raymond Crotty day throughout the EU!
I second that call for the recognition of the late Raymond Crotty, who bankrupted himself in order to go into the High Court and Supreme Court to get a ruling that all EEC changes to the Irish constitution would require a referendum. Raymond Crotty was an individual thinking man who gave his mind and body to the protection of an independent Irish society.
How many of his writings are in print?
Here's a wikipedia reference to Crotty's legal case:
' Crotty v. An Taoiseach
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Crotty v. An Taoiseach was a legal action taken in 1987 by Raymond Crotty, historian and social scientist, against the Irish Government. It established that significant changes to European Union treaties required an amendment to the Irish constitution (always done by means of a referendum) before they could be ratified by the state.
Walsh J wrote the majority opinion, joined by Hederman and Henchy JJ delivering a concurring opinon. Chief Justice Finlay CJ dissented, joined by Griffin J.
The verdict led to the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland.'
With the rash of anti-government voting for the sake of lodging a protest for a variety of perceived wrongs unrelated to the treaty, there's been a lot of hot air from the 'No' side about what the Irish public are saying with the vote.
If you care to peruse the international media, there are mutterings in the continental capitals about a new founding of the EU with countries opting in or out. The Lisbon Syndrome, for want of a better description. Hopefully it won't come to that. If it does, we're going to have a replay with the question this time being 'In or Bin?'. If it's passed, we'll look like a nation of panty-pissers; if it's lost, would the last sensible person to leave the country please flush the jacks and turn off the light?
If there's any running water or electricity.
"The people have spoken, and now we have to listen to the bastards."
That argument was tried BEFORE the vote, and now they're doing it as post-mortmem.
Under no circumstances do they want ordinary people to feel like they can get away with making democratic choices against the instructions of their political leaders.
A good dose of hype, scaremongering, and 'guilt', from these people (without a conscience between them) to try set the way for ramming Lisbon's rules through despite the rejection it got on Thursday 12th.
I don't buy it. They can't make Lisbon Treaty work without 27 countries.
They can just go back to the drawing board, come up with a treaty about the EU decision making structure and leave out all that sneaky stuff about funding the nuclear industry and updating our military and 'liberalising' our markets.
It's either a housekeeping agreement or a free trade agreement, it shouldn't be both.
We're not as stupid as they like to think we are, despite re-electing FF (in fairness, look at the alternative).
To ask opinions to other European people, we maybe could invite them to debate in a common part of Indymedia.
In https://www.indymedia.org ?
We make same text with translations, in this page, then we go and leave a message in english, in each Indymedia european web sites.
In same time, we could propose my antifamine idea. ;-)
http://www.marianne2.fr/Ignorer-la-voix-des-Irlandais-U...ments
http://www.marianne2.fr/Irlande-puisque-le-peuple-vote-...e=oui
an italian forum, translated in a very bad french !
http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=it&u=http...a%3DG
Doom and Gloom. The ungrateful Irish voters. We have no idea what we are
voting for. We are clueless. We don't understand the big picture.
I thought this referendum was a simple issue vote yes or no.
Ireland is the only EU country that allows it's actual people to vote on the
Lisbon Treaty. Previously the Dutch and the French people rejected the
Constitution. Their governments and the EU resurrected it in the form of the
Lisbon Treaty ignoring these wishes.
One of the issues I understand is Ireland. Will Hutton of the Gaurdian
newspaper in the UK sums it up "Eurosceptics celebrate a triumph of the
little people against the Euro juggernaut". I do not consider myself as a
little person. I consider myself as a person who contributes to society. I
have no criminal record, I pay my taxes, I worry about my retirement, and
most importantly I worry about my children and their future.
Ireland whilst only having 4 million people at home has about 16 million
people with current Irish Passports. We are bigger than our actual size. We
have had great Leaders on the International scene and our Leaders when
appropriately voice their concerns against major players as with the case of
Mary Robinson with the US. I'm sure she did not feel like "little people"
when she was in the UN.
Ireland has contributed to European History: Battle of Fontenoy, Duke of
Wellington (Irish born), two brigades in the Spanish Civil War, numerous
volunteers in the First and Second World Wars and many other conflicts not
mentioned. Irish blood has been spilt on the battlefields of Europe. To say
we are not part of Europe or are ungrateful and as in the case of the
Gaurdian we "the little people" does disservice to the Irish People.
We took a vote as rightly in our Constitution, we viewed all information
available to form this opinion. We asked questions because it affects our
Constitution. I personally asked questions from the EU and my political
parties in Ireland. I got the fob off. The Irish people got vote yes or go
to hell from visiting EU representatives. We got vote yes from our
politicians and not once in any debate did they put forward any positive or
meaningful debate why we should. We had the No campaign who actually read
the treaty, I personally gave up, we had An Taoiseach actually saying he did
not read it.
This brings into prospective what our politicians actually say.
World Wide I understand Democracy has a problem. The UK when 1 Million
actually demonstrated on the streets to say No to a War that has
subsequently proved false and over a million people in Iraq have died.
Torture flights and accommodation for Torture in the EU expressly springs to
mind and absolutely nothing done about it (Convention of Human Rights as
Practiced). Geneva convention basically destroyed, and the UN laid waste,
without the US or Britain it is meaningless. Our own political situation in
Ireland where one Taoiseach went to his maker with a not so clean plate,
another Taoiseach forgets and then remembers, it's a gift, oops it's a loan,
oops I won it on the races. Notwithstanding this in other EU nations we had
the former French President under scrutiny and the British Prime Minister
being questioned by police. We have the EU doing a report of our EU
representatives and how they claim their expenses not being open to the EU
public, but we pay them by our taxes.
I think we "The Little People" understand what goes on in Europe, we
understand what is being offered as well as The French and Dutch People. I
think we "The Little People" should not be ignored despite our size because
Historically Ireland has given so much to Europe. We were the holders of
science and arts whilst Europe went through the dark ages and we exported
knowledge free of charge once the European barbarians decided to get
sophisticated.
Yes I'm a proud citizen of "The Little People". I'm actually for the
European Project, but I'm not a gombeen that I can't question and decide in
my interest, in my childrens' interest, in Ireland's interest and actually
in Europe's interest how to vote.
I think Europe has a far bigger problem and nothing to do with the Irish
vote and that is the cost of oil and actually producing food. Is this a
major land grab by the banks to bankrupt farmers because it costs more to
produce food than to sell it?
Yours faithfully,
Stephen Norbert Wall
Or in Irish
Stefan Norbert DeBhail
My name was given to me by my English mother in honour of her Swiss step
father Etian Norbert Alexandra, who looked after her when her father ran
away and her mother died of cancer.
Guess what growing up in Ireland with Norbert as a middle name was hell.
Thank God we now accept our European neighbours names.
I was a European the day of my christening. Pity how I was never accepted
growing up in Ireland, Britain or Europe because of my multi culture back
ground. Thank God this has changed.
Keith Lynch of the Galway First newspaper in Galway, reports in today's issue (June 16th) that an investigation is under way into how whole bales of the Irish Independent newspaper were delivered into Galway polling booths (Bushy Park, Claddagh, Dr Mannix Road, Seamus Quirk Road and Claddagh) on Treaty polling day, "carrying a front page editorial comment with the headline, 'Why we need to vote 'Yes'." The article states that the newspapers "were distributed inside polling stations in Galway city last Thursday." (www.galwayfirst.ie)
It is fervently to be hoped that any investigation is quick, thorough, and names names. Those bales didn't just walk in the doors. The story shouldn't just be allowed to evaporate in the time-honoured Galway fashion of dealing with unpleasantries. On whose authority were they distributed - one or two papers is one thing, but entire BALES! One presumes the gardaí have been informed. The practice is, of course, illegal. So who decided to play with the democratic process in Galway city? And who gave the nod?
.
Biffo Says.... No New Ideas
No Means No
I don’t know about polls and percentages, but I’m sure that people want a different Europe.
In Padania (the north of Italy which claims independence) and Italy, politicians don’t want a Referendum because they now that the people would vote NO, even if the press is for Lisbon treaty … I feel that it’s the same in the other countries.
Thanks Ireland! We want the Europe of People, not the Europe of banks and bureaucrats.
(Sorry for my English)
The NO vote gives us an opportunity to make sure that the EU keeps it's nose out of our right to buy health products/supplements, without rendering the amounts permitted both meaningless and ineffective. The Pharmaceutical lobby is far too powerful in europe and holds too much influence here, obviously. When we speak about healthcare, we should in the first instance talk about prevention and health maintenance.
Is there anyone else out there willing to help out on a petition to tell Europe " hands off " our right to buy minerals and vitamins?
Could you name particular remedies now openly on sale in health shops that might be monopolised by the avaricious medical profession, like the sale of St. John's wort?
Yeah, Irish chemists are making a nice little profit out of the Druids' weed, since the pharmaceautical companies got their pals in the irish Government to make St. John's Weed a prescribable drug.
At the same time you have Panadol, Calpol etc, dangerous to the liver and life in adult and child, on sale everywhere without prescription - because this suits the big pharmaceutical companies thus making millions.
You don't ever hear about how many hundreds of deaths of people Paracetamol, deadly to the liver and present in all these products has caused in Ireland alone.
It is a National Scandal - you don't see the EU doing anything about it either, though thousands of lives , including babies' lives are at risk in all 27 states across Europe from such products of the world multi-national pharmaceautical companies, the real drug barons.
The Brussels Elite once again prove themselves heartless and totally uncaring of the 500 million people they administer.
To my knowledge all vitamin/mineral formulations are threatened by lowering the amounts permitted for consumption, to the extent that they become ineffective. St John's Wort will probably be back on the shelves in the UK very soon.
People do have the right to access these products. Of course people can overuse them but we have to assume that people are adults and can make their own choices. We haven't banned cigarettes or Paracetemol.
See the Alliance for Natural Health for more information, particularily the research done by Rob Verkerk.
I hope this helps.
The NO vote has positive implications for Irish consumers/users of health products.
www.nutraingredients.com/news/ng.asp?n=85929&c=1U6%2FvSl6znCb0tVAX11C%2Bw%3D%3D
It's strange that since I asked if people were willing to do something on a practical level to do some something about our access to natural health products, that this thread just died. There's a lot of idealistic hot air produced on this thread but no practical suggestions. One could call it " Pub talk ". I am starting a campaign to defend my health rights.
Talk is cheap but actions can change the world
The reason people voted No to the Treaty is due to ignorance of its purpose in the run up and the misinformation campaign by the opponents.
A re-run of the treaty with sufficient time to explain it and dispel confusion and the support of our EU partners will produce a YES vote from the Irish people.
The extreme right Catholics of Coir, the American CIA front Libertas and the subersive influence of Sinn Fein can be out flanked, because we are now fully aware of their tactics which will be less successful next time around.
You better keep telling yourself that Jim, because if there's a No vote in the second referendum (and remember you are asking a lot of people to change their minds) then you are in seriously deep water.
Announcing a second referendum would already mean sacrificing a lot of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael candidates in next year's local and European elections, since many people will be revolted by the idea, and the contempt for democracy it shows.
The Labour party seem to have the right idea, trunpeting that the treaty is "dead" and trying to find common cause with the No voters.
"Subversive" Sinn Fein seem to be odds on to do quite well next summer on the back of the back of the referendum result, but if there's a Lisbon II coming down the line they'll clean up. I hear they already talking of running extra candidates.
And if the government were to lose a second time, there would really have to be a general election wouldn't there? Tough decision for the FF party during a recession...
Sinn Fein are just a protest party.
Eventually they will be absorbed into Fianna Fail or the Labour Party.
Without guns and bombs they are just another fringe party.
Their supposed victory in the Lisbon Treaty campaign is an illusion.
The Irish public was simply misinformed about the the Lisbon Treaty.
"The Irish public were misinformed"? - Who controls the media? Who appointed the referendum commission? Who funds the Alliance for Europe? Who is carrying out this misinfoormation campaign- indymedia?
People with views like yours are a great hope for radical politics in this country. The hope is that deluded Yes campaigners will try to push another referendum onto the people without re-negotiation. Show that much contempt for democracy and we'll see who is dreaming...
The Lisbon Treaty should be put to the people again and this time the Irish people can have time to properly absorb the real benefits of ths Treaty and the lies and distortions of the No camp exposed.
There was not a proper lead up to the vote.
A rerun next year and a properly conducted yes campaign should secure a yes vote from the Irish people.
What is undemocratic about democratically elected governments negotiating a treaty and then returning it to their democratically elected parliamentary representatives or in the case of Ireland to the people directly?
What is undemocratic about giving the Irish people a second chance to give their democratic decision on Lisbon?
If the Irish people are properly informed the lies of the no campaign will be exposed for what they are and they will make the correct decision and vote yes.
The question the no campaign must ask themselves is whether they would accept the will of the irish people in a second referendum?
The no campaign need to take a long hard look at themselves.
Why should the referendum be re-run if there is no major change to the treaty?
To re-run a referendum without any change to the question shows contempt for democracy.
What would the YES side do to educate the public? Arrest the NO campaign and throw them in jail?
If it is re-run, why should anyone accept it as the last word on Lisbon?
Couldn't the NO side demand yet another referendum?
I forgot to thank you for the images intended for the French visitors. Very funny ! You guess right !
REcently, we had demo against reforms. (Statutory working week and pension)
I regret people spoke about each of one.
For me, it's directly against all EU reforms, we would have to say no.
In case you need to hear this :
Don't trust Sarko ! He is a good smooth talker ! A conjuror ( choice 1 or its opposite choice 1 ?)
He comes to an agreement with trade union and makes the law he wants, after.
His suggestion to make Irish people vote again wants probably find time to make his propaganda.
He is breaking up France. He is dangerous.
Before to be elected, he tried and assured against scientific, what result they have to find.
(He "wanted" that paedophilia was coming from genes).
Hoping all decision-maker are not encouraged mafia.
A + ! :-)
Dont Worry NON-iste,
There will be no Yes Vote here. You have a wonderful American-French lady called Susan George living over there with you. She has written a book called ' We the peoples of Europe" anybody who wants to know what is happening against us now in the darkened corners of European power cliques needs to read it.
http://www.tni.org/detail_pub.phtml?know_id=224
We will take the victory in October , this time we will take it completely.
A drawing from http://www.marianne2.fr/index.php
Translation of bubles :
Treaty of Lisbon /
Irish country says "no"
buble 1 : Not at all !
buble 2 : North of Irish country, represented by Gordon Brown, says ""yes".
Other many posters I have just found on net in
http://www.antisarko.net/
Poster is "affiche", in french.
Competition is "Concours".
If not, just clik and try to see if you'll find any ! :-)
Susan George is a good help to join us.
http://www.attacvalais.org/archive/2008/01/31/susan-geo....html
I am wondering if she is well known from other European countries.
You speak english, but imagine difficulties for countries where it is not motherly language ?
Maybe is it at sout fellow to try and make connection ?!!
Oups ! Somebody is taking me mouse ....
A +
When the government, the opposition, the church the unions, and every right wingnut threatens a yes vote or else ......and fails.....you know the people know something
Lisbon II....cant wait to shame them all again
Let the best man win. That's democracy.
And we won......but thats not good enough for our governing elite so we go again.....is this still democracy Jim??
In a democracy an issue can be returned to the people time and time again.
The government can call an election anytime it wants or a government partner can withdraw from government and form a coalition with another party without an election.
The FG/Lab/Democratic Left coalition was formed without a general election in 1994.
Similarly FF can ditch the Greens and go into government with Lab or even FG if it wants before the next election or FF might lose a string of by-elections and FG/Lab/Greens/SF/Ind could form a government without going to the people.
The government can run referendums as many times as it likes.
The people can vote NO or YES if they so wish.
If the government is not happy with the NO vote it is their right to run a second referendum if the so wish and it is the right of the people to vote YES if they so wish.
If the people vote NO again then Lisbon would most likely be disgarded.
However if a second referendum with a proper lead in with the a direct assault on the bogus arguments of the NO camp then Irish people who were incredibly confused and voted NO could instead vote YES.
If the NO camp oppose a second referendum outright then all the better it will show them for what they really are and will help to secure a YES.
Jim (Reference post at Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:21 above),
It is true, to some considerable extent, that the European Union leaders can keep on trying to sell us "Dracula" (rejected by by the people of France and Holland), "The Son of Dracula" (rejected by the people of the Republic of Ireland), "The Grandson of Dracula" (at present in the hatching stage), and so on, and on, and on.
In my view though, "they" might do much better if "they" now put all the horror movie stuff behind them, and head out instead in the direction of a European Union of SOVERIGN States: based on GENUINE democracy (as in "government of the people, by the people, for the people", and on the "rule of law" (which includes the actual ENFORCEMENT of human rights law, as set out by the United Nations).
Though I, like several other people I suspect, do not see Bunreacht na hEireann (Constitution of the Republic of Ireland) as being perfect, past events have shown that it does have several huge and very important strengths nonetheless. Also, of course, the parts which are seen by some to be weak, could be strengthened without too much difficulty (I imagine), if the majority of the people of the Republic of Ireland wanted it, that is.
At the risk of sounding arrogant maybe, this nevertheless leads me to thinking that other European nation-states could conceivably copy and embed some (or all) of the strengths of Bunreacht na hEireann (as they perceive them) into their own nation state constitutions, and that we in turn might find (later on) that we have much to learn perhaps from their improvements.
All that done, perhaps a "Constitution of The European Union of Soverign States" could then be produced -- which respectfully embraces all of the individual nation-state constitutions, and which seeks to build sound social structures for the common good (of the people of Europe) on whatever common ground exists between the several soverign nation-states participating.
If this general idea was pursued, explored, and experimented with a bit, it might be found that there is much more common ground between the soverign nation-states of Europe than many people might at first imagine?
Also, the people of the individual nation-states who wished to participate might find it much easier to vote YES to such an overall European Constitution of Soverign States, in the knowledge that they have the rock-solid protection of their own nation-state constitutions to always fall back on: as a barrier against ever being bullied into doing things they are not respectfully consulted about, and, far worse, being forced to do things (as a nation-state) which they absolutely do not wish to do, such as getting involved in the horrific wars of other soverign nation-states (for example).
WORKERS MUST win collective bargaining rights in every firm and the Government must protect existing pay deals if workers' confidence in the Government is to be restored, the leader of the country's largest union has said.
Siptu president Jack O'Connor said Irish workers have felt threatened since 2004, following the arrival of large numbers of eastern European labour, the Government's opposition to concede extra rights to them, and court decisions which backed employers, not workers.
"Workers' concerns about deteriorating security and quality of employment were manifestly evident in the Lisbon vote and the Government must move to address them and work to create a sense of belonging," he said.
However, Mr O'Connor said the union was flexible on how collective bargaining - which is deeply disliked by multi-nationals and companies such as Ryanair - could work in many firms.
Every other country in the European Union operates such rules, he said, "and the world doesn't stop for them. It happens in Northern Ireland and across the water, and there have not been problems".
In a pamphlet entitled The Lisbon Treaty: What Next? (See link below) , Mr O'Connor rejected charges that workers had rejected Lisbon because of anti-immigration feelings, insisting there was no evidence of this to be found in workplaces. "The situation will not be helped by dangerous and ill-informed commentary representing workers' concerns in terms of anti-immigrant sentiment. Thankfully we have little or no evidence of this in our workplaces, and we want to keep it that way, but we do have a great deal of concern about exploitation and the ratcheting down of employment standards, he said.
"... Those promoting the interests of business are already busy at work, shaping the agenda. According to them, the big issues are about protecting the low level of corporation tax and other business-related issues," he said.
"An amazing amount of coverage of the Lisbon referendum has focused on issues that are relatively peripheral to the lives of ordinary working people, rather than core concerns," he said.
The right to collective bargaining is enshrined in Article 28 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which would come into force if Lisbon had been ratified - though it would not have effect in Ireland unless domestic law was changed. "Such a commitment would also signal clearly to the Republic's workers that the new EU structures would benefit them, as well as employers, and it would tell those same employers they must learn to live with collective bargaining when their employees wished to avail of it, just like their counterparts in the rest of Europe," he said.
"The post-Nice experience is not something most workers want to revisit. My own union could not recommend a 'Yes' vote precisely because of that experience."
Rejecting charges that Ireland has become less European, Mr O'Connor said: "Europe has been blamed - but actually most of the problems are down to decisions taken in Ireland. These include the refusal to put robust employment protection legislation in place before opening the labour market to workers from abroad. "This facilitated the exploitation of these workers and also undermined employment standards in many industries. It could all have been avoided and it can still be rectified," said Mr O'Connor.
"We believe that there is an urgent need to address these concerns.
"There is an urgent need to heal wounds that have been opened up. We believe that steps are needed to restore a sense of belonging between ordinary people and their government," he said
Copyleft Irish Times
Sorry, I have no time to translate. (Above all with my bad level of english...)
Title of Marianne article is : " The worst ennemy of Lisbon Treaty".
If Irish people says no, it would be because they have not got the good informations.
More, they want and negociate.
He doesn't like we spoke about "simply treaty", because it is not simplify.
(If I make no mistake, the expression comes from Sarkozy (french presidential elected) , not from media). ;-)
I have definitively no time to try and translate, but you always can see on which head, was built this famous treaty. ;-D ;-D ;-)
A video is inside the link below.
As per the message above,
Interviewed earlier today, Tuesday 24th on France Inter, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing assumed the role of the ‘old wise man’, somehow forgetting or overlooking the fact that he was in the origin of the Lisbon Treaty rejected on June 12th .
“The ordinary citizen doesn’t receive correct information on Europe”, Giscard begins, “So let us try to fill this gap within the next few minutes” he tells his interviewer Nicolas Demorand. He continues by saying that the Irish NO was basically due to “the complexity of the Lisbon Treaty”!! “People said it was a simplified Treaty – well it wasn’t” he says. So the ball is nicely thrown into Sarkozy’s and Merkel’s court. The old man, Lisbon’s main author, is in the clear.
“The main objective is not ratification” he quips. And then incredibly: “Lets leave the Irish to catch their breath and they will have to reconsider their position in Europe – we will give them some exceptional measures and force them to vote again”!! But, be aware, Giscard doesn’t want a two-speed Europe “ Oh, no, not that - pas ca”!! He just wants a Europe where some benefit from exceptional measures and others don’t. Figure out the difference in the words of the old wise man. The very same VGE, who a week ago in French TV had said that he wanted to get back to the “democratic roots of Europe” now repeats that the key question is not ratification but that “Lisbon must be operational as soon as possible”!! Speechless I am
Sure he's only an auld eejit - don't mind him!
I wouldent describe any of these people as 'oul eeejits'. They ar the most dangerous threat to our individuality, our way of life ,our soverigenty and this plannet.
They are lying, two faced criminals-at least half of them have been up on charges of fraud, embesselment, insider trading etc...
The worst of what mankind has to offer ends up weilding the power ....spooky....no eejits though.
I meant 'oul eeejits' in the sense that they have the kind of social intelligence I normally associate with cuckoos, which is exactly right for cuckoos, but a total disaster for human society.
I believe the only reason most of them are not in jail is because of their corrupt influence on the legal and justice systems, and particularly the manner in which they have managed to effectively disable large areas of human rights law in favour of themselves.
How beautiful is english well written !
I would spent one day in private compagny with my dictionary, I would just generated a pile of words, probably hard to unknot.
The link has changed, on Marianne2.
See you later ! :-)
The implication of all of this 'do it again' business is that we made a mistake the first time round and now we'll be given a second chance. (If only the same logic were applied to General Elections). The truth is we voted no for a variety of reasons - some right-wing, some left. What the government is engaged in at present is a fishing exercise designed to established which side of the argument is more easily appeased. Dare I say it is unlikely to be the left? Our problem with the treaty (and Europe) goes to the fundamentals of Big Power, enfranchisement, collective action, responsibility, etc. The parties (most of them) don't want to address any of these issues at all. So, they will tinker with the complaints of the Right - Ganley and his gang - and try to come up with a minimal adjustment via letters of comfort etc.
I believe that there are underlying problems that the majority of voters worry about that cannot be fixed by this strategy. Militarisation is one. The creation of an EU military-industrial complex is not a comfortable thought for the majority of Irish voters. Another major issue is the continuing trend towards Neo-Liberalism, despite the fact that neo-liberalism and globalisation are dead ducks. Another is the erosion of the social democratic aspects of the EU. And so on, and so on.
In addition to all this, the Irish do not want to be asked the same question twice.
Down here in Cork I can tell you that the SP and the WSM ran terrific campaigns. Their posters were everywhere, witty and deadly accurate at the same time. I don't think SF made much of an impression, by comparison.
N.I.C.E. to see them holding hands again eh?
How daft do the elite really think we are. The top preist Brady proclaiming that us irish, ney, us europeans, have lost our 'Christian memory'. Perhaps it might just be that those within the borders if the state who are actually allowed to vote in a referendum have a fairly good memory of the Catholic Church's empty moralising. How far back you want to go Fr Brady. The slaughter of women across centuries in Europe, the continual expansion of cash power and property, the inability to call things as they are, the confusion between justice and charity. How about the raping of children, beatings in schools, and global efforts to hid it for decades. What about the squashing of liberation theology in your own cult eh?
As for ol Dick himself....Bring it on! You really think that a population will be fooled by attempts to frame the debate in coercion. let be in no doubt, to get another NO will require lots of work, and it won't end there if we are serious about reshaping powers structures and unhiding the masks of maked market democracy. However they have more to lose than us! This i'll be a good one. the choice is clear.
and just how much will the state and the parties dance will the devil in black. the genie is out of the bottle and can the government and business court the Church yet distance themselves. Not so strange bed-fellow perhaps but a strange time indeed to start courting again!
Only a Dick would think we are that daft!!!