Political Parties Hijack Protests

by james - none Fri Jan 09, 2009 13:39

these parties whose members spend all week before the demo giving out flyers..who internally debate and discuss the issue at hand..these parties who are angry at what's happening in gaza.. whose members are active in broader movements.. and who believe that they have an important interpretation of the issue.. they shouldnt come???
c'mon... the protests need as much support as they can get.. i dont care if anarchist and socialists are wondering around giving out their material..it creates a culture of political debate..and diversity...and im gald to see them all there..
in fact when certain parties dont turn up on the demos i get kinda pissed off that they state they care about the issue but wont get on the streets.. i'd rather see them there and their supporters and supporters friends.. the more the better!!
i think the palestinian community are glad to see the various banners and declarations of support!

by Conor. M - S.E.E.D Fri Jan 09, 2009 14:03

I would also argue, it is good to see political parties support but I do see the point being made. It is a bit overkill sometimes.

by Miriam Fri Jan 09, 2009 14:08

Especially when people like Dan Boyle turn up, as he did in Cork last Saturday, and claim that the EU and other international organisations are not the means by which Israel should be challenged.

by Pete - 'observer' Fri Jan 09, 2009 14:17

James,
I have no problem with parties giving out flyers, I do it myself. You choose to comment on some of what I said... I never said they shouldn't come, of course they should... just dont go with the intent of advertising your party. I have been told it turns people away so it does affect a turnout.

You say you get pissed off when some parties dont turn up, maybe they are there... just not advertising their party. Therefore they are there for the right reason... to protest against the attacks in Gaza.

Your last comment, 'i think the Palestinian community are glad to see the various banners and declarations of support!' I know an Afghani and a Palestinian, one an atheist another a Muslim. They HATE the idea of the political parties being there to get a word in for their party. He like the support, not the propaganda. The Afghani wont be there on Saturday, thanks to the parties who claim to represent our needs. If they represent our needs, protest with the people, not the party.

by Sarah Fri Jan 09, 2009 14:31

well done. someone had to say it. the political parties are quite literally ruining the outcome. My friends and I left a protest after a certain political party tried to hijack the whole thing. THESE PARTIES ARE RUINING THE WHOLE THING AND I'M GLAD OTHER PEOPLE REALISE IT.

Political parties go home and come back without your stupid banners. No ones gonna vote for yez anyway

by Miriam Fri Jan 09, 2009 15:07

People should turn up as themsleves and not as reps of their parties - exploiting the protests at death in Gaza for party politicla purposes is pretty crass, imo. Sure, if people are to speak at protests, they should declare political interests but leave it at that. I was disappointed to see the Cork demo last Saturday posted here on Indymedia to give the impression that it had been an Ogra Sinn Fein event - even the photographs didnt tell the true story.

by a party member writes: Fri Jan 09, 2009 15:11

Bringing the banner is a method of showing support for the cause- it's welcomed by the organisers. It also acts as a focal point for supporters of our party to show their presence as activists- it means we are not just there as individuals, but with the blessing of the party to which we belong.

Our banner is fairly small and we march towards the back of protests, sending our public representative, who is usually fairly well known, up to the front to march with the organisers of the protest and help carry their banner (thereby showing support in news media footage and pictures).

We sometimes hand out leaflets or whatever, explaining our party's position.

We provide a speaker if we are asked for one.

We never try to sign people up to our party, have petitions or anything which records people's details, or otherwise try to recruit from the marchers.

We never have party stalls or try to sell merchandise (although someone usually has some of our party's newspaper, more often than not we forget to sell them).

by Albatrot Fri Jan 09, 2009 16:02

This is nonsense, pure and simple. Why shouldn't parties recruit people who agree with their analysis. What if there is an individual on a demo who would like to get involved in fighting for a world where events like the current situation in Gaza are a thing of the past? What if that activist doesn't know which party is closest to their position on the issue. They read the material that is handed out. If they find someone they broadly agree with they might buy the paper to see if they agree on other issues too. This is how a party or other organisation does its recruiting and its not exploiting the issue, its building to find a solution to the world's problems, to do something that has a more permanant effect than simply marching around for a few hours on a Saturday.

by Anne. W Fri Jan 09, 2009 16:21

The only negative comments here are people from parties. The post is good and fair. I dont like going to protests in Ireland because the parties hijack the movement. Like others said, its not an opportunity to recruit. Parties should not be so pushy. On that note, the left parties are pushy anyway... why does anyone think they get nowhere?

I will go anyway and hope other people dont let the left politics ruin every movement

by Political Member Fri Jan 09, 2009 16:31

Peter,

You're awfully cynical. I don't think any person, party or organisation has attended this demos for pure self interest and gain.

What has been happening in palestine has been happening for decades. The solution is not simple. Yes everyone on the demonstration demands and immediate end to the slaugher. But that isn't enough. Demonstrations are a breathing ground for debating what is necessary and effective, different political parties bring different positions which are condusive to serious debate.

Of course you have a right to turn up to demo's as does everyone else, but in what way are you justifying a certain repression of political parties but limiting what they bring and hand out on demonstrations?

If it's on the grounds that they are ruining demonstrations please clarify. How different would the demonstration be if no political parties brought banners or material?

by Steve Casey - supporting Palestine for over 20 years Fri Jan 09, 2009 16:36

I simply have to say the socialist party stood, waiting for the crowd to leave the Egyptian embassy, to hand out Socialist info and to sell their papers and a young speaker mentioned the party more than once. Also, he was not asked to speak... one of the organisers said it was a request. This is opportunistic at the highest level.

The Socialist Workers Party started chanting in a megaphone at central bank, they were chanting over a Palestinian speaker.

Don't insult my intelligence and say they are doing this for Palestine, they are doing it for their own selfish reasons.

by Pete Fri Jan 09, 2009 16:48

''You're awfully cynical. I don't think any person, party or organisation has attended this demos for pure self interest and gain.''

Like I said, and I'm not the only one with this opinion, some people in parties or parties have shown up for gain. I dont say they dont support the idea of freeing Palestine, I know they have a moral conscience.

''Of course you have a right to turn up to demo's as does everyone else, but in what way are you justifying a certain repression of political parties but limiting what they bring and hand out on demonstrations? If it's on the grounds that they are ruining demonstrations please clarify.''

Like I said, using the demos for your own reasons is stopping people from going. Another post also backed that up. I know someone who refuses to go to these demos because it infuriates him to see the demo being hijacked. He actually inspired me to write this. He is from Afghanistan and he regularly goes to help in Palestine, as well as helping in Africa and other places. He does more than the parties do and he cares passionately about humanitarian crisis's, yet he can not bring himself to go to these demos... Why is that? Its the parties fault!

by cropbeye Fri Jan 09, 2009 17:08

Yes well the parties can be a bit of a nuisance.

However if one is self assured in ones own position the space you occupy is as valid as that of anyone else

and it would be strange to surrender it. After a while the parties become a bit like the Irish weather

we grumble about it but it wont kill us and we can decide not to let it ruin our day with the right mental attitude.

I don't know if you ever attended the A.G.M or A.D.C or a Trade Union

but you get lines of these people hanging about outside selling their considerable array of papers etc.

It is just a factor of nature and eventually one gets to barely let them register on ones

thoughts if you are concentrating on the particular business of the day.

If everyone stays at home and blames someone else then international decency looses and the superpowers can be even more

blatent.

by Ciaron Fri Jan 09, 2009 17:29

It's pretty much "ambulance chasing" which is a standard left marketing technique in my experience over the last 30 years. The parties will move on to the next corpses once the mainstream media shine there spotlight there.

So if Gaza is your priority, give it a couple of weeks and these opportunists will be gone. They will abandon Gaza as they have abandoned Iraq and Afghanistan before it ...building the party, rev group is their priority.. very cultic. but that's the way it is...it's groundhog day and cattle drives through towns whenever something like Gaza happens...very predictable, the state factors it in before they go kill a bunch of people

There's not much you can do about it the lefty parties put all there energy and skills into controlling these fronts...and very little into confronting the state or supporting folks who do....these types of demonstrations are largely marketing tools for the small groups, brand lifting if the mainstream media shines on them (for upcoming elections) and largely therapeutic for the average punter.

I basisally go along to catch up to people on the fringe of the demo, bring my own placard to avoid being conscripted by the parties mass produced ones etc...back in the day I would have been involved in attempts to democratise such events eg. demanding open platforms, setting up autonomous soap boxes on the fringe of the crowd as an alternative to the politicians (who you know will sell out once they get a whiff of power see Greens)....don't bother these daze, maybe just getting old. As Kenny Rogers reminds us "You go to know when to fold'em and when to hold'em etc etc

I was bit shocked to see the Labour Party banner there last week...isn't in the Labour Party is Israel that is bombing the shite out of Gaza?...I would have left that one at home if I was them....but still the Greens turn up with the brand name while they facilitate the cannon fodder through Shannon. So go figure!

There are some decent folks working on Palestine solidarity and that was a great scene in Derry this morning and we should be supporting Caoimhe and others who are nonviolently and directly trying to intervene over there, the draft resisters etc

by Ciaran Gallagher - Socialist Society Fri Jan 09, 2009 17:58 ciaran036 at hotmail dot com 07593527150

Although that thought did enter my head... you do have to realise that it was these political parties who organised the protests, and provided all the promotional materials and everything needed for the day. Without these political parties and other groups, there wouldn't be any protests! There are some anti-war groups and other groups who don't appear to be related to any political parties but most of these anti-war groups are the members are usually quite political anyway and are usually involved with political parties.

Political parties certainly do use the opportunity to get new members and to try and win votes but that's just how politics and democracy works!
Those parties who did organise protests will put the others to shame and any monies collected from donations or sales of any kind are used to further the interests of that party - which for those that organise protests can be used to organise and promote even bigger and better demonstrations!

by Conor.M - S.E.E.D Fri Jan 09, 2009 18:07

Ciaron,
Your comment is perfect. The group I am involved with made the decision to bring home-made signs as not to 'advertise' our group. I pretty much agree with everything you said and I'm glad there are people out there like yourself.

I am young but have seen these political groups take advantage of situations like this. The last year or two I have become socially aware I came to understand the fundamental of left parties and political parties in general. The greens are a fine example.

Without rambling on, I will say it is a pity how these parties act, I was involved with one for a while and I can safely say I would not join any political party again.

by Shane Fri Jan 09, 2009 18:14

spot on there Ciaron, spot on.

maybe this is why I've never voted for any of the so-called left, or anyone really. they are worse at

complaining, less productive and more propagandist than everyone else. In 30 years I've only voted

once. It was for a green, and look what happened.

by SP member Fri Jan 09, 2009 18:28

These types of anti political party comments are astonishing. While the party I am a member of and other parties and groups on the left are campaigning on dozens of issues that affect working class people in Ireland and internationally, virtually 365 days a year – what are you doing?
You have attended a few protests against the war in Gaza, big deal. What have you done to try to build campaigns and movements against not just this war but the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the Lebanon? Socialists and Marxists have been to the forefront of building mass movements against wars going very far back - the first Gulf War, the Vietnam war, the Second World War and the First World War. We are not jumping on any fucking bandwagon or are ambulance chasing as someone said. Left parties are committed to supporting or organising struggles against capitalism and imperialism and while most of you moaners are sitting at home we are out week after week, in all weathers campaigning and organising. We make no apologies for putting out material that contains our analysis, or carrying placards and banners or trying to recruit people so that a political alternative to capitalism and war can be built. That is our democratic right and we are not going to stop just because some middle class dilettantes who go on the occasional march don’t like it. See you on Saturday!

by Pete Fri Jan 09, 2009 20:19

I have been to Gaza on more than one occasion. I help people in need, I dont do campaigns to 'build a working class party' as you all always say. You want to know what I do? I have been to three continents, Africa, S.America and the middle east doing humanitarian work. I have dedicated my whole life to helping people. Middle class nothing, I am a normal person and come from a normal working class family.

I do know however, the majority of the Socialist youth are middle class, UCD, students. Give me a break with your working class nonsense. Your party is full of people who want to belong to something. I never went to college and have worked since I was 14. I rarely go to protest because I'm too busy with life. You ask me what I do to build campaigns, I dont. I just go and help.

''Socialists and Marxists have been to the forefront of building mass movements against wars going very far back'' - Socialists and Marxists have been to the forefront of causing wars also, but I'm sure you have some excuse for that.

I tell you what. The world doesn't want Socialism and certainly doesn't want your propaganda, the voting outcome has proved that. The Socialist party are a joke and everything YOU say is crap. I am against Capitalism and Socialism. I work damn hard to help people in need while you 'build your campaign'. The Socialists are worth nothing. What have YOU done for society, except complain about capitalism and have meetings in Wynn's hotel. Grow up,

Peter

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Fri Jan 09, 2009 21:02

The banners, leaflets, newspapers and contingents of political organisations and trade unions have been present at protests consistently for more than a century. It always amuses me when someone shows up to a protest or two and then starts complaining that there are political parties there, or groups with written material which is about more than simply the demands of the particular protest.

What exactly do these people think a movement consists of, if not a mixture of organisations and individuals? Who exactly do they think does the bulk of the donkey work in organising and advertising most demonstrations? Do they think that thousands of posters are printed by invisible faeries and then magicked on to lamp posts? A large proportion of the stuff that makes organised protest movements work is done, behind the scenes and with little or no thanks, by various political organisations.

Protests are generally called around a set of demands. These demands are limited to things that a whole movement can agree on. That is - disparate groups and individuals come together around a set of minimum agreed principles so that they can work together. But pretty much everybody involved, every group and every individual, has wider opinions both on that particular issue and more generally. It is both natural and reasonable that people want to express those views those too. And there is a long and correct tradition of people doing so at protests. If you don't want a group's leaflets, it's unlikely that they will wrestle you to the ground and push them into your hand. If you disagree with a group's placards you don't have to take them or hold them. If you don't like a group's banner you don't have to march behind it, and if you don't like what a particular speaker has to say, you don't have to listen.

Even Pete, in between spouting allegedly apolitical nonsense about how all he cares about is "helping people", has wider opinions. Rabidly anti-socialist opinions it seems. And guess what? He's free to express those opinions here and at campaign meetings and, if he likes by bringing his own placard or leaflets to protests. No matter how ill founded those views are, or even if those views seem to amount to little more than a desire to censor people he disagrees with on protests. That is the joy of open publishing and also of the free interchange of ideas in political movements. Even would-be censors get to spout off. And the rest of us can't silence him, although I wouldn't ordinarily choose to waste my time listening him.

There is something particularly crass about the comments here in favour of silencing organised political groups on demonstrations. The fact is that people will often disagree with others in a movement about the best way forward for that movement, about how that movement intersects with wider political concerns, about strategy, about tactics and principles. A movement like that in solidarity with the Palestinians contains people and groups with an incredibly wide range of views, from Muslim thinkers and groups, to Socialists, to reformists, to people who don't even realise that "helping people" has a political context. We don't have to agree with each other to march together. But we do have to agree that we all have the right to organise, to argue for our opinions on the best way forward and we do have to accept that the person or group next to us on the march may be expressing opinions we don't entirely agree with.

If a few people can't accept those basic ground rules, let me invite them to go and organise their own campaign group which insists on ideological homogeneity on its marches. They can raise the funds to organise their own protests, get the activists together to advertise those protests, hire the speaking equipment and then they can quite happily separate themselves off from the irritating people they don't agree with. They can also gather together the necessary stewards to police the demonstration and silence people with views they find uncongenial. I don't think that this new model of campaigning organisation will be very successful, but the failed attempt might at least give us some peace from the kind of bleating this thread is full of.

by Conor.M - S.E.E.D Fri Jan 09, 2009 22:17 liberalconormurphy at ymail dot com

What you say is ridiculous. No one here wants to silence or (as you repeatedly say) censor political parties. Dont get so defensive about things not mentioned. I just watched an Israeli defense rep (DON'T WORRY I'M NOT COMPARING YOU AND THEM, JUST AN EXAMPLE) answer questions he wasn't asked and ignore other points, it looks bad and its annoying. You seem to miss the point the author made. He said political groups are hijacking the movement. Its a bit extreme but I happen to agree with it to a certain extent. We all know how much work political parties and groups put in. But that's not the point here. He said its being hijacked and its putting people off.

A whole lot of people I know wont go to marches, protests and demos because of political parties. I actually know an astonishing amount of people who wont get involved in politics because of the SP and the SWP. I'm sorry to say, but its true. Its a sad reason really.

But I do want to know Mark, What do you think of these posts, including mine, saying people wont go to Demos because of parties like yours? That's all I want to know, nothing else.

Excuse me if I sound a little hostile. I have a certain amount of respect for the Socialist party. I voted for Clare Daly....

by Terence Fri Jan 09, 2009 22:45

I happen to agree with what Ciaron says in the comment above, but I also think political parties have a right to be at protests considering they organise a fair amount of them. Whether the protests achieve anything or not is another question and Ciaron's point about them be therapeutic is probably pretty valid. But then what else is one going to do? It is still better than sitting at home. And therein lies one of the core points. Conor above says: A whole lot of people I know wont go to marches, protests and demos because of political parties..

Unless these people are off doing equally or greater things, surely this is just copping out? We could all make some excuse to stay at home and that's the whole point and that's why all these killings and other stuff goes on, because the vast majority of the population doing absolutely NOTHING IN THE PUBLIC sphere about it. They might complain in the privacy of their own home or amongst their friends but that is perfectly fine by all governments that they do this on all issues of concern.

Now one could argue that the old idea of protests which as I said seem to be pretty ineffective are outdated, but what are these people who are staying away because of so called political hijacking doing to present us with new ways to solve the problem? I accept that the direct actions of people like Ploughshares and others and Pete's work in Palestine and elsewhere is certainly positive and directly effective, the only problem is that there are precious few people willing to take the risks, hardships or challenges to do this work. If we had 1000's of people doing this, that would be really great. So yes it is an alternative if only people would do it.

However I do have a problem with people who use the 'hijacking' excuse to do nothing. As Mark said above, they ain't going to be wrestling them to the ground to take their leaflets and they don't have to carry their placards. With that level of determination, governments really don't have much to worry about.

by Conor.M - S.E.E.D Fri Jan 09, 2009 23:03

It is a sad excuse as I said to stay at home in any occasion. But I still say, and its not my opinion, that unfortunately people do stay at home because of political parties choices to 'hijack', or whatever you want to call it, a protest.

The governments loves this attitude the world over and probably think they are model citizens. I still want to know what the parties think of this attitude without saying its a cop out. I know people who dont go for these reasons, they are not liars or lazy and they also contribute in their own way but, they still wont go because of certain political parties attitudes etc. I do want to know what parties think of this. Its a put off, pure and simple

by Jacqueline Fallon Sat Jan 10, 2009 02:33

It sure would be a small demo if none of the socialist parties turned up. Anyway, the truth is that they are - damned if the do and damned if the don’t.

It disappoints me to see that there is an ever increasing supply of Irish socialist parties on this small island, when one big one would suffice for all four provinces and be so much more effective. The infighting and extreme bitterness that rival Irish socialist parties feel towards each other has to be seen to be believed, and I wish it were different.

I recall at the start of one demo I attended overhearing a supporter of the Socialist Party giving out that the SWP were in front of them, and then his comrade becoming alarmed and saying that he couldn't bear being so close behind them. Some supporters of the Labour Party were annoyed too with the Socialist Party (who were positioned in front of them) on witnessing them about to move up in front of the SWP. I saw some young overly enthusiastic members of Ógra Sinn Féin run on ahead of everyone with their flags and banners to make their way to the very front of the demo and nearly toppling over a few people in the process - they seemed impatient and annoyed with everyone. Some Irish republican socialists in attendance seemed vexed too, on seeing a former comrade in arms' party's appendage skip the queue. It is amusing at times to see the amount of jiggery pokery and vying for position that goes on at demos (although, obviously, not at this sad time).

Anyway, I hope all political parties in Ireland and independent individuals attend this demo for the sake of all those Palestinians who have lost their lives and all who have lost family or friends recently - beannacht Dé oraibh. By our attendance we are saying we do not approve of the Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip, and that the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against these brutal Israeli attacks, and a right to regain their lands back that were unlawfully confiscated from them. Every country has a right to defend its citizens from attack and their homes, but some citizen’s homes have been stolen in the first place.

by Ridiculous Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:59

I am not a member of a political party but I find this thread and the people attacking the political parties totally ridiculous. The reality is the political party activists are the ones organising in communities over a host of issues that aren't 'popular' and are ignored by the non party aligned activists. Well, some of your friends mightn't turn up to a protest because of the parties, I'm not going to turn up as I don't want to be associated with people like you in any shape or form. I clearly have nothing in common with you and find your position odious. All my friends who I'm not going to name and who do humanitarian work and save dying babies all agree and they haven't been to a protest in years because it is taken over by people like you who bitch and moan and do nothing except for turn up at a protest and then go home all happy that they have gone out and 'made a real difference'. All you people who are in here attacking political parties should realise that they have far more support than you could ever gather whether you or I like it or not. Why don't you go and organise your own protest and show everybody just how 'big' such a protest will be. You certainly wont have the confidence to go ahead and do that because you know that these 'friends' wont bother turning up at that one either and you will hopefully realise then that you are talking utter shite.

by blanch Sat Jan 10, 2009 18:40

I am very frustrated also by the political groups using these protests to further their agenda. Today in Dublin there were signs calling for a socialist Middle East! WTF??

1. This isn't an appropriate occasion to support the spread of socialism.
2. Anyone who knows anything about Arab states know that there is neither a will nor a likelihood of this happening! I say this as someone who believes and hopes in a move to socialism in the world.

It is a disservice to the socialist cause and worse still it is a disservice to the cause for peace in Palestine. This hijacking risks putting the majority of moderate people off supporting the demonstrations.

by Sarah Sat Jan 10, 2009 20:35

CORRECT, It is the moderates who will be put off. I saw some things again today that bothered me but in saying that Gerry Adams, Joe Higgins and others made a good contribution to the movement.

The Socialist party said they came to the protest to support and not to sell etc. I arrived early and the Socialist party had a stall set up, selling all sorts irrelevant to the movement. I also got handed something from the WSP and it also had absolutely nothing to do with this event. I am a socialist, not in any party, and doing what your doing is damaging your image and, I'm sad to say, making your party look opportunistic.

by TP Sat Jan 10, 2009 21:49

It's quite funny to hear you complain about the SP having a stall set-up at Central Bank selling material that's supposedly irrelevant to this issue, considering that SY has a stall in the College Green/Central Bank area every week. If you really want to complain about such things, maybe you should complain that the IAWM had the audacity to have a single issue demonstration in the area!

by Sarah Sat Jan 10, 2009 22:56

Get over yourself. I see the Socialist youth at the central bank all the time. Whats that got to do with anything? Someone from your party said, we do not sell materials, maybe give out a few papers. Your stall was there for the wrong reasons. I'm sure you know, your party and youth are at the butt of every joke in the left... and I'm not just talking about political parties. SP = opportunists and laughing stock.

by Pete, observer Sat Jan 10, 2009 23:07

''It's quite funny to hear you complain about the SP having a stall set-up at Central Bank selling material that's supposedly irrelevant to this issue, considering that SY has a stall in the College Green/Central Bank area every week.'' So here you admit having material irrelevant. Its not 'supposedly irrelevant' as you say. I went to your stall for a laugh and its full of the usual propaganda and the usual people. Anyway, why are you at a Gaza march with all this nonsense. Your ruing the day, putting people off and talking pure rubbish about a 'socialist middle-east'? Build a bridge and get over it. I've been to Palestine, you think they want a socialist society? You are delusional....

Then you go on to say........ ''If you really want to complain about such things, maybe you should complain that the IAWM had the audacity to have a single issue demonstration in the area!'' Yes, I suppose I never really thought about that! I should certainly complain about a group protesting about the Gaza situation, when its about the Gaza situation. THIS is why your party is a joke. You should have one of your UCD students overlook things before you comment. Its pure dribble and it ads onto the list of your political parties nonsense.

by paul o toole Sun Jan 11, 2009 00:09 pauljotoole at eircom dot net

Party building is what demos are all about, nothing else, ending Irish support for the killing of innocent people in Gaza like you are led to believe by the shouting is not on the agenda. Thats not isolated to Ireland, its worldwide left policy. If ending this was what this is about by those who run these demos then we would all be down in Shannon..constantly,,,,awareness of the extent of what is going on down there will never be expierienced on fitzwilliam square listening to anti-war 'activists' who care more for their own political profile and their party profile, than the guilt we all feel at our government's collusion wilt this new breed of facism.
The political lefties actually help the Government get away with genocidal warcrimes by ignoring the one point of focus where Ireland stands guilty -Shannon.

People need a place to go when they are faced with witnessing a massacre at the hands of their own politicians. Those who claim that they brought people out to the street are lying. People wre commin out anyway.
They only provide the focus.....the wrong focus at that....on purpose id say....that is if they really are interested in ending Irish complicity in warcrimes. If this is not true then you would expect a huge surge in membership within the left parties given the huge numbers out for the 'Feb 15 th' as it has come to be known- membership fell. What does that tell you?
When 100,000 people came out to the streets to protest the Iraq invasion, all manner of claims were made about who 'got them out'. I speak for myself and most of those I know when I say why we came out on thr 15th...There was focus...a direction....a follow up programme....something to latch on to and continnue with -and not go home and dissappear into th crowd to continnue on with life as normal as so many did...to continnue with anti-war activityies...It was Shannon.... and those who damaged aircraft, went to court and won.
Victories were claimed by all those politicos who ignored them for the three years it took . 12 ordinary decent minded people acquitted those who 'disarmed' military aircraft in Shannon. That was progressive...
This is not he case with Iraq, Afghanistan or now gaza.. Why? Because of the demotivational nature of all left activity. Wether it is on purpose or not is for another day..i have my views.
Regarding demos, they are a complete waste of time. Shouting at empty buildings on weekends,,,they must surely be laughing down their snouts at us

by TP Sun Jan 11, 2009 07:30

Sarah,
My point is that we regularly have stalls there, whether there was a demo or not. You seem to believe that because the IAWM calls for a demo there, that we should stop everything we're doing, hide all our material and morph into some sort of single issue group (something we're not) just to appease a few poor, fragile folk who might not like us. Grow up.

Pete,
Well the word supposedly would indicate that I disagree with the material being referred to as irrelevant. It's not that difficult to understand. Much like the sarcasm in my second sentence seeing as the new rule according to Sarah is that whoever calls the area first, has the right to stake the claim on the specific issue.

As for being a joke, a laughing stock or whatever, my feelings are very heart. I might just leave the party because some big boys called me names on Indymedia.

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Sun Jan 11, 2009 13:01

"But I do want to know Mark, What do you think of these posts, including mine, saying people wont go to Demos because of parties like yours? That's all I want to know, nothing else."

If these imaginary people are so deeply fragile that they can't bear to march in the same demonstration as people they disagree with, and if their commitment to the cause concerned is so weak that they would rather stay at home than share a demonstration with those nasty evil socialists, I can't say that I consider losing their support much of a loss. Or any loss at all.

I can also tell you that if someone was so deeply unwise as to try to build a protest movement that censored or excluded the various political groups, they would end up alienating and losing the support of considerably more people. Campaigns and movements are, by their very nature, coalitions. If you can't work with others, if you can't accept that others may have leaflets or placards you don't agree with, you won't get very far in building a movement.

But let me repeat my invitation to Pete, Sarah and anyone else who is moaning in this thread about political groupings taking part in demonstrations and producing leaflets and placards expressing their views. If you don't like the coalition model of movement building that has been generally used for the last hundred years, you should feel free to organise your own campaign group. Let's see you organise the necessary meetings, call the demonstrations, produce the posters and hang them up around the city, print the leaflets and find the volunteers to distribute them and then organise the necessary stewards to censor anyone who raises a point of view you find uncongenial and stop those nasty political organisations from handing out their leaflets.

For some reason though, I find it hard to see you putting your money and efforts where your mouth is, so I suppose we'll just have to put up with your ill-considered bleating within the movements that actually exist. Luckily for yourselves, there's nobody trying to exclude you from expressing your opinions within them.