Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead confrims Irish Lisbon guarantees are meaningless

by Blacbloc Sat Jul 04, 2009 09:13

For anyone who can't be arsed to go to link, here's the text of the HoL exchange:

The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): My Lords, the June European Council discussed and agreed the guarantees that the Irish Government wanted in order to address the concerns of the Irish people about the Lisbon treaty. The European Council conclusions say that the decision,

“gives legal guarantee that certain matters of concern to the Irish people will be unaffected by the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon”.

Those guarantees do not change the Lisbon treaty; the European Council conclusions are very clear on them. The Lisbon treaty, as debated and decided by our Parliament, will not be changed and, on the basis of these guarantees, Ireland will proceed to have a second referendum in October.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Again, I greet her and warmly welcome her to her role as Minister for Europe after her excellent maiden speech last night. I should like to ask her about the guarantees. She says that they are legal, but in fact they have no legal force at the moment. They would have to be incorporated into some future treaty if they are not to be incorporated into the Lisbon treaty. Can she explain how that process is going to work? Which treaty will they be put into and when will this occur? That information would help us a great deal.

Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, what we have in the guarantees will become binding in international law when the guarantees are translated into a protocol at the time of the next accession, which presumably will be when Croatia or Iceland comes in. Before that protocol can be ratified by the UK, Parliament must pass a Bill. As I said, Parliament will rightly have the final say.

Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, I welcome my noble friend to her new role and ask her a simple question. Does she agree that the role of the United Kingdom in relation to an Irish second referendum is to keep its nose right out of it and let the Irish people make their decision?

Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that helpful question and of course I can only agree. The point is that we have not pushed or pressed or bullied the Irish into this referendum, as some have suggested. They decided that it was a process that they wished to go through. They consulted and are consulting and, as I said, a referendum is to be held in October.
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by Pro Lisbon Lefty Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:42

The debate was about the Lisbon Treaty as it applies to the UK. The revised protocols only affect the operation the Treaty in this jurisdiction.

by Blacbloc Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:02

There is no such thing as a genuine left winger who would support the Constitution/Treaty :-)

Clarification, my foot! Face it my friend, you guys make an hilarious spectacle what with yer backsides all out of your trousers like that. This is the end of the road. Kinnock has left you with no option but either to admit the guarantees are a crock, or to dig yourselves further into an increasingly embarassing and damaging pit by attempting to spin this. Objectively speaking your best tactic now is to admit the guarantees are worthless and to be seen to demand real ones.

by MichaelY - IAWM and no to Lisbon Campiagn (CAEUC) Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:27

In a packed and highly constructive meeting in Galway last night, Labour Youth friends listened carefully to their special guest, NO activist Susan George. Labour Youth seem to have reversed their last year's position and they're now arguing for a NO vote - going against the Labour Party leadership position. As we know from last year anyway, 62% of Labour Party ordinary members voted NO. In this sense, Labour Youth are beginning to swim with the tide.
As for the debate in the House of Lords, while it is constructive to hear Brit politicians tell the truth for a change, let me point out that the likelihood of these political promises - for that's all they are - becoming a protocol are very very slim. First it was going to be in 2010, now we are told it would be 2011 'when Croatia comes in'!! However, Slovakians say the Croatians will come in 'over their dead bodies as there is a huge land and coastal dispute between the two countries.
Any views on this one 'pro Lisbon ' lofty?

by Pro Lisbon Lefty Sat Jul 04, 2009 18:08

“There is no such thing as a genuine left winger who would support the Constitution/Treaty” – Blacbloc

Yes there is. There is Senator Ivana Bacik, Michael D. Higgins TD and Proinsias De Rossa MEP to name just three in Ireland.

As for my clarification Blacbloc you have not rebutted it – just huffed and puffed. The position I have outlined withstands legal scrutiny. The terms of the protocols are quite clear.

To Michael Y – Croatia is very keen on entry ASAP and any problems can be dealt with by means of the accession process which the EU Commission is adept at. It is telling that Croatia and the rest of the newly liberated countries of central and eastern Europe either have joined already or are keen to, including Ukraine if they could. The power of attraction of the community is very great – your brand of nay saying is rather provincial under representative. I might ad that membership is fully supported by Croatia’s trade unions and students. Maybe its you that is wrong.

by MichaelY - IAWM and No to Lisbon Sat Jul 04, 2009 19:40

Reading your stuff I am getting confused on whether you reall believe you are a left winger or you're under the influence of something or other.....you call 54% of our people voting NO "provincial underrepresentation"? Have you read the comments of that genuine right-winger McCreevy earlier in the week saying that had the European citizens been allowed to vote 95% would have voted NO to Lisbon? The French and the Dutch voting agains the Lisbon pre-clone - were they also provincial?
You should have seen last night Labour Party members in Galway coming to the podium and saying they would vote NO this time......along with Labour Youth....more provincials? 62% of Labour Party members voting NO last June....Gilmore saying Lisbon is dead.....provincial them too?
As for Ivana, MichaelD and Proinsias - pls tell them to insist that the Gardai board and check the rendition flights going through Shannon day in and day out....before we can all accept that there is an ounce of leftism left in their bones......

by Rt Hon Iosaf Sat Jul 04, 2009 21:01

Coz I think all laws & constitutions be they organic, statute, common or decree are pretty meaningless guarantees when it comes to turning to some poor chap or chapette and reassuring them their enshrined rights be they human, civil, national or European are nothing more than mere privileges hanging on that annoying little plastic string thing they use to put the price tags on new clothes.

The House of Lords on the 18th of June 2008 approved the Lisbon treaty bill without a division, after a procedural motion to defer consideration of the bill due to the the negative Irish referendum on the Treaty was defeated by 277 votes to 184.

It had been a long day for their noble dearies & some of the more embarrassed members must have felt they really were getting their travel allowance worth. They had of course read the treaty. You can see that on Youtube. Every single one of them with their tongues sticking out of their patrician mouths as they negotiated the long words. They also decided to publish the 29th European Union report in which you can actually read what what it was they were voting for from a posh English perspective.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldsel...2.htm

Coz that's what Mrs Kinnock said - "Nothing in the treaty will change and nothing in the guarantees will change the treaty as your Lordships agreed it." - they must have been very relieved & might even have felt a self-satisfied glow which comes from a good day's political decision making and voting. Imagine if they had to put it to a referendum where people of all types could ink their thumb.

You lot in Ireland know you have all the reasons to argue reasonably with sane and kooky Irish voters alike whey they shouldn't approve Lisbon. You don't really need to bring their lordships into it, and actually it seems that most of the debate and politicking on that June 18th 2008 was actually over the future of Europol co-operation and shared crinimal intelligence. Europlod as I call it was a much higher priority than Eire's exceptional or potential guarantees since Ireland had naturally adopted "opt-out" devices which parallel our neighbouring state Britland - which we must have noticed coz they do so much telly.

by Blacbloc Sat Jul 04, 2009 21:52

Can you speak in palin English, just once? A fkking tiresome bore this childish riddling bollox. And you're missing the point. Not for the first time.

by iosaf Sat Jul 04, 2009 22:06

Not until you look at what she said - that the Lords approved the Lisbon Treaty last year on a division without extented debate after another motion was defeated. It's not like the Lords really matter either. If you looked at Lisbon and EU treaties in detail you'd soon realise the very idea of the house of Lords is one of the de facto exceptions held by the UK.

sorry to piss you off. I hope your tongue didn't hang out of your patrician mouth as you were getting round my comment or knocking off your reply.

by Pro Lisbon Lefty Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:20

Michael Y This type of obsessional euro scepticism is an Irish provincial thing compared to the almost universal feeling in eastern and central Europe. One can travel from Odessa to Poznan and from Tallinn to the Adriatic and people either want to be with their neighbours within the community or aspire to be. And you have not refuted that Senator Ivana Bacik, Michael D. Higgins TD and Proinsias De Rossa MEP are left wingers who fully support the Lisbon Treaty. You are wrong in saying that there are no left-wingers who support Lisbon. The very most that can be said about your position is that there are some people on the left who are opposed to Lisbon and some others also on the left who are very supportive of it.

It is especially noteworthy that you attack and belittle Ivana since she is one of the few politicians who actually came along to the IAWM public meetings in Liberty Hall.

by blacbloc Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:37

It's not about whether the Lords matter or not. Kinnock has confirmed that those who are selling the guarantees are fully aware they are meaningless. They are the whole basis for the Yes campaign's rerun of the referendum. Most of us knew they were a load of nonsense anyway, but here it is from the horses stinking mouth itself - a woman at the heart of the whole EU quagmire, whose husband shut down an inquiry into expenses and other fiscal abuses at the Commission. It makes it a darn site harder for them to go on telling the lie and is useful to quote at wavering No voters. I don't give a tinker's fart about the HoL - but I do want to be aware of what they are doing and saying. The fact of quoting one of them signifies nothing at all about how I view them. Jeez.