IPSC & Phoenix magazine publish 16-page feature on Palestine

by Contrarian Mon May 24, 2010 12:01

Looks like a sizeable piece of work all right.

Is all the focus on the Israelis or does it cover war crimes perpetrated by Hamas? Like the targeting of rockets at purely civilain targets - worse still, timing those rocket attacks when young children are on their way to school. Or the treatment of Israeli Corporal Gilad Shalit, kidnapped from INSIDE Israel and kept in captivity without contact with the outside world, contrary to the Geneva Conventions.

If it is even handed in its treatment of war crimes, then its to be welcomed. If not, then its simply one-sided propaganda and should be dismissed as such.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon May 24, 2010 14:22

seems balanced to my biased eyes,contrarian.Hajo Meyer,in his contribution gives the Hebrew word 'teshuvah', apparently a classical Jewish concept meaning to desist from a false direction.I have little doubt Islam has an equivalent term that would apply to the reactionary elements in Hamas.But then Israel fed Hamas till it turned into yet another blowback Frankenstein.Well done Phoenix, and all involved.check todays news on Israel's collaboration with Apartheid South Africa's nuclear ambitions.Also Australia's expulsion of personnel over passport cloning for assassinations while Cowen and Martin keep the heads down.Meantime Iran is still Obama's and Clinton's public enemy number 1.That tail of Zion sure wags a mean Uncle sam.

by Duke Nukem Tue May 25, 2010 09:38

Time to call time on this bankrupt nuclear apartheid pariah state that thumbs it's nose at the whole world, even it's American master, proliferating nuclear weapons, murdering opponents using forged passports and stolen identities, collectively punishing whole populations, spying on their allies and stealing their technology, discriminating against their own minority population, invading and butchering their neighbors in their thousands, flouting international law and agreements and building illegal settlements on stolen land.

by Sean Og Wed May 26, 2010 10:00

Teshuvah means " returning " to Gods ways according to dictionary
or in other words " repentance "

Might be worth thinking about why Israelis have been driven to the desperate actions
ascribed to them -- or is it the old Catholic idea of Original Sin which has gripped our polticians here ?

by Tom Wed May 26, 2010 11:16

Sean Og,

I'd say that you could look towards the despicable actions of Europeans to see the genesis of the despicable actions of Israelis towards Arabs. That is, if you didn’t want to look at it myopically in order to explain away human rights abuses and continuing illegal actions which are tantamount to war crimes.

Fair play to the IPSC and Phoenix for putting that document together .

Slán,
Tom

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed May 26, 2010 13:06

Shakey ground, Sean Og.Does your retaliatory logic mean the Palestinians are now to be justified in responding to Israeli state terrorisation by displacing some even weaker population and ethnic cleansing them into concentration camps where they can be collectively punished for the crimes of THEIR most desperate reactionaries.And doesn't that Original Sin gig originate in that book of Jewish folk tales they call ' the bible'. Which,after all just means 'the book'. If Hans Christian Anderson had a story saying us decendants of Hansel and Gretel originated in Mecca can we claim the Saudi oil?The twenty first century wont reach the twenty second if we base global behaviour on the glorification of exclusive tribal territorial claims.That shit should be left up the trees in Olduvai, unless you're on another one of those racial suicide missions that finish in pathetic little bunkers in oceans of collateral damage.It doesn't really matter whether you spell it as Gotterdammerung or Ragnarok or Armageddon or whatever the Wahhabi equivalent is.Even the bible doesn't ask for five hundred eyes for an eye, which would approximate to the operation Cast Lead retaliation rate.

by Sean Og Wed May 26, 2010 18:40

I think you will find Original Sin was not a concept developed until the Jewish sect called Christianity broke away from mainstream Judaism as it is not mentioned in the Hebrew i.e. Jewish Bible [i.e the "Old Testament ".]

O S is entirely a Christian concept and useful for those who historically believe Jews can never do any good and are ipso facto guilty .
This concept suits some people poltically as well .
One of two of the recent Popes attempted "Teshuva " after Vatican 2 etc

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu May 27, 2010 11:44

Funny.I thought the Original sinners were Mr and Missus Adams bar Jehovah of Eden Gardens Estate.Doesn't that originate in your Jewish Old Testament?As for those idiots 'who think Jews can never do any good and are ipso facto guilty' I think they will find any concept useful to further their ends, just as those ignorant enough to think the same way about any 'othered' group,whether it is Paddy with his Travellers or the Aussies with their Abos ,Zionists and neo-cons with their 'ragheads' or Nazis with their 'vermin' will clutch any straw that saves them the bother of thinking out the contradictions in their opinions.As for Popes,if teshuvah was the worst of their crimes the kids could sleep a lot more securely.Nice herring all the same,shame obout the bluish tinge round the gills.Meantime the Gaza genocide bubbles on while we amuse ourselves arguing as to whose pinhead contains the most angels.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu May 27, 2010 20:43

Contrarian's original comment suggested ,if the memory serves,that one sided propaganda be dismissed.I suggest Sean Og is off topic.The Phoenix suppliment is far more balanced and considered in its treatment of the issue.If we cannot maintain at least an equal balance we are not up to discussing these issues.Does Sean Og contend the suppliment is unbalanced? Let him be specific to the issue.Correct me if I am wrong.

by Contrarian Thu May 27, 2010 21:18

Sean Og, I'm sure can speak for himself, but I would find it hard to call the Phoenix/IPSC supplement balanced. For the following reasons:

1. The total and complete absence of any comment or reply from the Israeli point of view. Were they offered a right of reply or given an opportunity to comment? If not, isn't that a basic principle of good journalism abandoned.

2. Lots of coverage of Palestinian dead and injured, colour pictures, eyewitness accounts, comments from grieving relatives - none whatsoever from the Israeli side. Rockets, suicide bombers, mortors all aimed directly at civilian population with the intention of maximizing death and injury.

3. Use of the phrase "Apartheid wall" - for most of its length it's a FENCE not a wall. I guess "wall" sounds more dramatic though. And it has succeeded in reducing suicide bombings to almost negligible levels.

4. Use of the quite offensive term "the Jew" by Kadar Asmal to describe those Israelis he alleges (incorrectly) enjoy more rights than others.

5. The quite risible series of maps (a particular favourite of the IPSC!) that compare apples with oranges in describing the evolution of ownership and political/military control of land over time.

There's more but why go on? If people want to reduce complex issues to black and white good/bad stereotypes, so be it. The Israelis are, admittedly no angels, but the Palestinian leadership (rather than the Palestinian people who have suffered dreadfully) also bear a huge share of the responsibility.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Fri May 28, 2010 02:51

Might do you no major harm.Lets look at your points.

1. The Israeli point of view?I doubt its the Palestinian perspective you are driving so forcibly,Contrarian.

2.The casualty rates belie your statement.Whose figures and intentions would you offer as a comparison?

3.I lived and worked under the Berlin wall.That was mostly fence too.It wasn't particularly 'dramatic'.Mostly sweat and stress.Bit like warsaw circa '42.

I'll leave the other two for later.We all bear responsibility.Lets try to be responsble instead of so reactive.As you originally said, lets try and keep it so it can be " even handed in its treatment of war crimes".This shit needs a referee, and Uncle Sam is sleepin on de stool.Again,if I misquote you,correct me.Shalom.

by hb Sat May 29, 2010 14:47

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/24/isr...frica

On 5 January 2009 the Israeli army rounded up around 65 Palestinians (including 11 women and 11 children under the age of 14) in Gaza, several of whom were waving white flags. After handcuffing the men and stripping them to their underwear, the soldiers marched their captives 2km north to al-Atatra and ordered them to climb into three pits, each three metres high and surrounded by barbed wire. The prisoners were forced to sit in stress positions, leaning forward with their heads down, and prohibited from talking to one another. On their first day they were denied food and water. On the second and third, each was given a sip of water and a single olive. On the fourth day the women and children were released and the men were transferred to military barracks. . . . .

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat May 29, 2010 16:20

Again,well snared,excellent balanced article.But drop the Zioracist noise.Check out Gush Shalom,and remember there are plenty of Jews and Israelis who despise their sick rulers as much as you do.Inflamatory language can drive potential allies into enmity.Keep it even.And keep scouting up the materials.Shalom.