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Who is afraid of the IMF - their opportunity and ours national |
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news report
 Thursday November 18, 2010 11:29 by Andrew - WSM
 It's now official, the Irish state is in talks with the EU and the IMF about a so called 'rescue plan' to bail out the Irish capitalist class from the disaster created by the international crash of the capitalist economic system. A crisis that was magnified in Ireland by the corruption of local crony capitalism on the one hand and the dependency of the economy on 'globalization' on the other. Trapped between such a cast of crooks and idiots it is perhaps not surprising that many in Ireland hope things will be improved when the running of our lives will be handed over to those who many hope might have a clue. The Irish political class have reacted with the same meaningless infighting and slagging of each other we are all so used to. Meanwhile in the real world the cost of the crisis is reflected is soaring unemployment, emigration, suicide and more and more people living in a permanent state of fear and anxiety that they are about to lose their jobs and their houses and find themselves on the streets. The unfolding disaster threatens to paralyze people, lacking any collective response they can only scramble around as the tidal wave approaches. IMF intervention they hope will mean at least that the bottom has been reached. |
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Comments (23 of 23)
Jump To Comment: 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1You shouldn't vote for the Lisbon Treaty!
Now, it is the last chance - change Euro for your own currency, cut expenses and no more money for the banks, otherwise IMF is going to smash your economy...
If things keep up for Fianna Failure , up being the operative word , their '' popularity '' might just match the 5% interest rate we are being quoted by the *I.M.F.
for their financial assistance in getting us out of the Big Black Hole which with* their initial help has got us into our financial predicament in the 1st place.
After all is said & done 'We Sold our Soul's to The Devil & Now He Has our Children ' ...
That's not common sense but excrement of a male bovine. Of course over here we also have people who believe in "trickle down"
NOT the issue. You didn't get into this economic mess by not following their rules. THEY weren't following their rules. Not the first time one of their bubbles popped. But that's not the problem now.
In the mess, your collateral no longer worth the paper it is backing, how tough will be the terms of those who have what to lend to keep you afloat? Yes of course, they screwed themselves up too, just not as badly as you so far. Like I said before, your only card is if you say "no!" (terms too steep) they come crashing down too -- if they have to write off your paper, can THEY stay solvent?
You CAN choose to default (tell them no dice) -- just understand the likely consequences. Whatever you decide it's going to be bad; up to you to decide which of the possible alternatives would be less bad.
An IMF support deal could certainly stabilise the international system and prop up Ireland and other European countries . The big question is about the Conditionalities that might be imposed. In the 1980s many African countries availed of IMF help; and their governments made drastic and binding reductions in expenditure on infrastructure, health, education and other sectors. Governments became servants of the IMF and foreign commercial banks while millions of citizens hovered on the poverty line. There won't be mass malnutrition and illiteracy in Ireland, but there will be a demoralization and feeling of economic helplessness.
"The purpose of the IMF/ECB intervention is to safeguard the stability of the international monetary system and the European Monetary system and not to bail out Ireland's economic disaster."
Precisely -- and that's the only bargaining chip you folks have.
This is very like the situation where one house in a row is on fire and the neighbors are dickering over the terms under which they will help the people with the burning house put out the fire. Not out of neighborliness and the goodness of their hearts but because if not put out the fire is sure to spread to their houses. How stiff terms can they set? Well not so stiff that the people in the burning house say "The H*ll with it, unless you give us better terms than that let them all our houses burn".
I haven't a clue how hard you can or cannot press for a better deal. You've a nasty choice. Meanwhile all of you folks (all of Europe) is pissed off at the way we over here are attacking the problem. Or how so far, since who knows what the new Congress will want to do.
Hello Mike,
Your comments deserve careful consideration. As a supporter of democracy, I do recognise that democracy is still only the "least worst form of government" with many flaws. I do not necesarily expect "the political factions I favor" to win, as I accept that my views are often critical minority views. Mark Twain said something like "when I find myself on the same side as the majority, I reach for my gun". The majority is often wrong, but it is democratically entitled to be wrong. The problem in Ireland at present is that democracy is decidedly not working and has been grosly and corruptly abused over the past 3 years especially. The deep sense of shame being felt by very many Irish people at present is based on the knowledge that we allowed this to happen, we allowed by neglect the corruption that became the catalyst for the economic collapse. The irony is that at present many Irish people thing the arrival of the IMF/ECB is a good thing. They do not realise that the IMF/ECB are not bringing a cash donation, but are about to force a large loan of up to 100 billion Euro on the Irish people, further increasing our indebtedness so as to ensure that the Irish taxpayer pays from the gambling of the Irish Government, Irish banks and Irish developers, as well as the gambling of French, German and British banks that funded the Irish gamblers. The purpose of the IMF/ECB intervention is to safeguard the stability of the international monetary system and the European Monetary system and not to bail out Ireland's economic disaster.
An immediate change of government brought about by public demand would at least restore some sense of ownership, pride, and responsibilty to the Irish peope, in place of the shame they now feel. At least any decisions made by a newly elected Irish government would have some basis in democracy.
"When "democracy" is working correctly the decisions are the decisions that the people want, not the deciisons that you think they SHOULD want."
I agree, and I would support the people's decisions in such matters if they are freely and democratically made, because I also accept that my opinions can also be wrong.
But Edward, do you have some reason to believe that if you forced a general election the political factions you favor would win? Have you sampled the Irish voting populaton? Your polling results indicate that you could expect to do much better than last time around?
PLEASE -- don't misunderstand what I am saying. By all means organize your political alternative. But unitl you have convinced enough people that your way is the right way forward calling for immediate elections won't help. When "democracy" is working correctly the decisions are the decisions that the people want, not the deciisons that you think they SHOULD want.
Open Letter to the People of Ireland
Expressions of, anger, resignation, disgust, shame and deep depression will achieve nothing in the present crisis. We must take positive action and do something. We do not have a real government at present, so we are in a state of virtual anarchy, and every extra day of such anarchy is causing further damage, that will have to be paid for by our grandchildren. Our sham government is driving the country towards the edge of cliff, so we the people need to stop the country and turn it around. The self-serving Fianna Fáil and Green hypocrites will not resign but will continue to the last possible day to maximise their ministerial and TD paycheques and pensions.
We need a national strike now to force a general election, before Christmas, and before any deal with the ECB/IMF is agreed. Any deals or national budgets brought in by the present regime will have no mandate from the people of Ireland. This national strike must be all-encompassing, and include public and private sectors, the young, the old, the gardaí and the Defence Forces. Enough is enough, we need to re-establish our republic and take back our country.
We must do this now to restore the honour and self-respect of the Irish people, otherwise we will deserve the shame that has been forced upon us. We must do this peacefully but with firm determination, otherwise many people will be destitute and many will die because of lack of adequate medical care and essential support services. – Yours, etc,
Edward Horgan
Related Link: http://www.pana.ie
Why is the director of the IMF is complaining that the rate of progress of the IMF negotiations in Dublin is going to slowly? What's wrong with this picture? The answer is nothing, so long as you understand that the IMF are not the driving force in these negotiations.
Despite the newpaper headlines, what is happening is not an IMF bailout. This is a European debt restructuring process in which the IMF are playing a merely supportive role as consultants. This is a Eurozone process and although the political masters of the Eurozone, through their EU Commissioners, have the final say on passing or vetoing the final agreement, the true driving force behind this process is the ECB.
continues at http://www.wsm.ie/c/ireland-imf-bailout-ecb
I have looked at the bond holders, but what I haven't seen is the Irish names that belong on that list and I haven't heard a credible reason why the Guarantee included non retail banks or why NAMA proposes valuations that are way over the odds. But I can deduce, from the historical record of FFs relationship with the Irish ruling class that the last 2 years of wasted time in dealing with this crisis provided those players plenty of time to clean out their safes. The IMF will crush wages and incomes in Ireland and debase public services without doubt, but they won't alter any of the ownership and control structures that have precipitated this crisis and all the economic crises the the country has experienced. You're welcome to join with the establishment players and the pig media in Ireland and blame the Germans or the IMF but this catastrophe was made in ireland.
Even the Irish Times has now editorialized against the IMF intervention but like most of the emerging mainstream concerns the Times is not concerned about the cuts in jobs, wages and welfare that the IMF will be used to impose. No their concern is for the loss of 'sovereignty' as IMF intervention results in a rise in populist cross class nationalism, a tide which ironically the ruling party, which is bringing in the IMF to make the cuts it would like to, will be best placed to ride.
http://www.wsm.ie/c/imf-arrival-dublin-yesterdays-enemies
"Both they and the IMF should be told to f**k off and we should default"
By all means as long as you are willing to accept the consequences. Which would be that for the next decade or two you have to live within your means on a "current cash" basis, unable to borrow except at interest rates factoring in the likelihood of a future default.
You are ignoring the evidence right before your eyes. Your outstanding debt was already being severely discounted by the liklihood of default. That's what it means when sovereign debt goes for insane rates like >8% and still rising. The lenders of the world were saying "if nobody steps in and they won't accept the necessary conditons then they will default".
YOU decide which will be more painful. Accepting these harsh terms or accepting the hardships of having to live within your means for the next few decades. Of course if you're wearing blinders and think it would be easy to switch to living within your means that might seem like an easy choice. But remember, the wealth of the super rich isn't a fixed quantity. As soon as you introduce measures like confiscatory tax rates, etc. it vanishes. By that I don't mean that the super rich can steal off with it but instead that those propeties simply are no longer worth so much to anybody.
Puca, have a look at the bondholders in Anglo. Go on, have a goo. See who they are? Now, how does that fit your narrative? Also, do you believe Trichet advised that Anglo be covered by the guarantee? If he didn't he should deny it. FF and the Irish people who bought into the whole boom madness are to blame but Europe is just as much to blame. They are not even giving us money. They are borrowing money on our behalf to give to us at a rate of interest so that we can give it back to Deutsche Bank etc. Both they and the IMF should be told to f**k off and we should default.
Steady on chaps. The bank guarantee which precipitated the baby sitters from the IMF appearing was designed and implemented by Lenihan/Cowen/DoF and whoever else attended those meetings (in secret) two years ago. The IMF and ECB had little to do with it. Its still difficulty to say exactly what FF thought they were doing but such was the risk of the guarantee resulting in sovereign default we can assume that they were covering important arses that were close to them, masters of corruption and all that. Why else would they put the Irish taxpayer on the line for unknown and unlimited liabilities? So before we get all hot and bothered about the capitalist coup taking place in Dublin lets remember that when we were in charge...
One can only imagine what Our brothers who died for the state would think about this take over... Strongbow landed in dublin today,,, yet again....... Imperialism is alive and well and still screwing us over...... Poor paddy unable to sort out his own affairs.. They are laughing at us folks.... At least the greeks were out making it look like they gave a shit..... Well i guess the fun has only just begun... It will take a year or 2 before people realise that we have been screwed out of something.....
Maybe then we will head to the GPO.... for round 2....
I agree with opposition to the so-called 'federal europe' and with opposition to making the vast majority pay for financial speculators and developers greed. But let's not forget that not so long ago, the vast majority of people who voted (and who managed to get it right second time around) supported this project via their support for the Lisbon treaty.
let's not forge that under EU law 60-70 per cent of our beef, lamb , etc must be exported. if we had our own currency back it could be linked to something real - our agricultural resources. instead we have a a shit load of processed crap imported to feed our people.
BIG CON JOB ON RTE
They are selling this as if it was good for us. ITS A BIG CON.
The German banks just want their money back
They are forcing us to take another 20 billion euro to be put straight into the banks which will mean it goes straight back to Germany.
Leaving the Irish people to pay it back and also to deal with the "terms" of the loan which might include raising our corporation tax and dog knows what else.
It's a big scam.
We gave them our fish and they fished it out and never gave us anything back worth the same money. Then we got screwed when we joined the euro. Now their banks are trying to screw us again. With friends like these, who needs enemies.
Talk about kicking someone when they are down. We should elect a radical socialist government, default and burn the banks and fuck the EU we should withdraw and print our own money, nationalise the gas and oil reserves and ask chavez to drill for us, then become a little self sufficient foodwise. .
a change in government won't make any differerence. we are owned by bankers.we need to get out of europe and print our own money at the very least.
I think a lot of left wing organisations were caught unawares when the crash / bank guarantee happened in Sept 2008. Now the IMF are here, it is the time to up the ante, and get organised.
the article is now in Italian at http://www.anarkismo.net/article/18079
allow me to take a quote from Fr. Jon Sobrino Jesuit liberation theologian living in El Salvador.
in his book. WHERE IS GOD, Earthquake, Terrorism, Barbarity and Hope. published 2004.
Michel Camedssus, when he was president of the IMF, said in a famous lecture to representatives of the world banking system in Lille on March 27,1992, that neoliberalism capitalism fullfills the words of Jesus in the synagogue at Nazareth announcing the good news to the poor LK 4 :18.
today that Scripture is fulfilled for you who hear it. that today is our day, and we who are in charge of the economy, are the administrators at least in part of this grace of God alleviating the suffering of our brothers, and working for the expansion of their freedom. it is we who have recieved this Word. it can change everything. we know that God is with us in the task of building brotherhood.
The IMF may be less idiotic that the FF/Greens, but it will be a very expensive way of proving them wrong. The IMF likes to lop off 20% - that's off wages, jobs and benefits.
The real problem is that the banks that will now cost us over €100 bn., while Ireland's general government external debt is €80 bn. See the end of this page:
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/imfsummaryire.htm
The "bailout" isn't a bail-out, it's another loan to the government to shore up the banks. Supposing it costs €150bn all in all to save the banks, and they are then sold off in 3 - 5 years for peanuts to foreign banks, Sean Citizen and his grandchildren would still be left to pay off the €150 bn., or most of it.
It would be half-way decent for the EU / ECB to admit that it did not supervise Eurozone banks properly, and will write off half of the bad debts. And for the bondholders to admit that they wanted a one-way bet, buying high-yielding bonds with no risk.
Can we be thankful for anything? Yes - the British banks have accepted their $222-bn "exposure" from over-lending here. So if Cameron and co. lend the 2 Brians another £7 bn on top, they will at least earn something back. But we won't.