Now 5 #OCCUPY sites in #Ireland... Add #OccupyWaterford to the list

by #OccupyWaterford supporter Wed Nov 02, 2011 09:28

Fella: You have already decided your demands and occupy waterford hasn't even started yet??

Occupy Waterford: Yes we have already decided our demands, we have been working towards getting support from the people of waterford, local businesses etc.. We have been discussing our demands at meetings also on the build up to the occupation. As you know waterford is a small city and support is well needed. We will occupy on the 1st november ,, and there we will stay!!

people from waterford decided to wait and see how the other sites developed before we jumped into it. We decided to travel to dublin and cork and talk to organisers about the positives/negatives of what they experienced. They came to one of our meetings recently and explained what they did and what their aspirations for REAL change were. Invaluable info b4 you jump into the unknown, esp with the weather turing cold. We are planning a significant movement that will grow quickly, offering real help to the people of the city who are in financial strife...

we have a small highly educated population and we can travel around the country meeting all of the occupy groups and sharing ideas and vote on what we agree on in the majority. This could be presented to the people to vote upon in the future when the current government falls, which it will as these austerity measures and the next budget will only fuel the fire of discontent in the country. The occupy movement is a peoples movement where NO ONE who is pushing a party agenda will be allowed to do so in the camp(but they will be very welcome to contribute in other ways).

Occupy Waterford: the structure is there, now comes the meat

Occupy Waterford: young and old, brave and bold

by Cathal - WSM-personal capacity Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:54

We can see from the leaflet of the Occupy Waterford group that they obviously have very little in common with the thousands of other occupations going on around the world. Occupy Waterford see Brehon Law as "natural" for some reason and the financial crisis as stemming from usury - not neo-liberal policies or capitalist economic relations, as other occupy movements see it. It seems clear that the people involved in Occupy Waterford are mostly from the Freeman of the Land, a group that promotes crypto anti-semitic conspiracy theories and think the path to freedom is through legal loopholes like not saying your name in court.

The new edition of the Irish Anarchist Review has a good critique of the phenomenon: http://www.wsm.ie/c/anarchist-critique-freeman-movement

by lefty Wed Nov 02, 2011 14:07

" It seems clear that the people involved in Occupy Waterford are mostly from the Freeman of the Land, a group that promotes crypto anti-semitic conspiracy theories and think the path to freedom is through legal loopholes like not saying your name in court."

This does not seem clear at all from the leaflet above.  In fact it seems like they want to dispense with the corrupt legal system altogether and replace it with a simpler system which focusses on natural justice not law.  Seems pretty sensible. The current system is out of control, does not serve the people and it would probably be easier to start again with a simpler system of community justice than fix this current corrupt mess. Do anarchists believe in the current justice system now?

It also seems they do see the problems with the financial system and want to decouple from it and create a currency that serves the needs of people in the practical manner that currency was originally intended to.  Surely thats close to the hearts of anarchists? a simple practical currency to allow basic trade amongst autonomous decentralised collectives for the necessities of life. Without the possibility of abstract abuses of that system as we currently have.

There is no mention of anti semitism.

It is not conspiracy that money works the way it does, i.e. is created from nothing because of capital to lending ratios of 10:1 or more currently allowed in our banks. Nor that these and other financial fictions and abstractions have led to huge abuses which we are ultimately all paying for now. Limiting usury and controlling your own currency to serve just the practical needs of people seem like sensible ideas to me.

I do agree that the "freeman of the land" approach is silly but I don't believe this group are aligned hook line and sinker with these ideas at all. And I am surprised at members of the wsm divisively attacking this group in a somewhat unsubstantiated manner.

where is your specific proof of these rather serious allegations?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Nov 02, 2011 14:53

one provision of the Brehon system worth revisiting was the recognition of communal ownership of land with regular redistribution to take account of changing needs..from according to abilities, to according to requirements...nothing new under the sun..

it prevented accumulations of wealth at the expense of social prospertity..precisely the creek we now find ourslves up sans paddle. Dont be too quick to condemn what you dont understand..and I have only a bare acquaintance witrh the brehon law..

by FSB! Wed Nov 02, 2011 15:15

Oh whoopee!  I can't wait to have my personal worth denominated in female slaves and cattle...

I would imagine that everyone is agreed that we slaves have bad masters these days.  But essentially what the Freemen believe is that there is a just authoritarian system out there if we look back in history far enough.  So, if the 'right' framework of law is erected around a monopoly of violence then the leaders will not become corrupted.  This is hopelessly naive and fundamentally misunderstands the nature of political power.  And yes, what the Freemen believe is in a form of authoritarianism, for their La-La Land will have judges with wide powers of coercion, and a police force of some type with the coercive powers to enforce these judges' pronouncements.  And you don't need Brehon Law to propose a system of collective property - all forms of socialism support this concept and provide for it in  various ways, and in forms much better-suited to our present-day living.  I have been done with prelapsarian fantasies since I lost the last vestiges of a christian upbringing sometime in my teens, so I'd say Cathal is correct to be well wide of these fantasy-ridden chancers.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Nov 02, 2011 15:36

No doubt you are quite content with the neo-feudal, Anglo-Roman system that sees your personal worth,and your kids, (though from your hair-trigger reactionary response I doubt you've any)loaded with accumulating debt before birth.

Well if you can generalise from one remark to a fully-fledged totalitarian code, I guess we can all sauce the gander.
Most constructive.

I look forward to living in your utopia..do post the timescale for its introduction so we can order the champaign.

by Headscratcher Wed Nov 02, 2011 15:48

Seems strange that people are already whitewashing an entire Occupy effort by labelling them all as Freemasns and then getting into an argument on Brehon laws etc etc

TO be honest I think that the entire occupy movement would be better served by not getting into the kind of list of demands that are listed above (and that appear to be written before the tent was even set up!)

As I understand it, the Occupy movement is based on simple enough premises; a clear 99% vs 1% issue of wealth distribution, and the development of specific place and spaces which offer an opportunity for people in society to engage in consensus based decision making and a "process" which involves their active participation...

This means that the "active" people on the left, be they in political parties, anarchist groups, social justice orgs other organizations etc can be joined by a BROADER GROUP OF PEOPLE, which is necessary if you want to change society and political/economic structures, no matter how great (or bad) your ideas are.

So perhaps, just once, we can avoid having the split first, as much fun as that can be for many people. Of course this means no-one can write a list of demands for the occupy movement, or a manifesto, or whatever. It also means the movement cannot be co-opted. So I'd say concentrate on the process first, cos if you get that ight, you've already gone much further than most alternative social movements in Ireland. 

by Weary Wed Nov 02, 2011 16:35

Whenever a movement gains traction, the efforts to trigger infighting start.  If it's not trying to set the swp off fighting with the sp then its bringing up declan ganley or whoever.  Basically don't fall for sectarian efforts to increase divisions. Its standard divide and conquer.  Our class enemies are laughing into their glasses of fine wine every time we proles go at each others throats. Lets have more intelligence for once.  Groups can co-operate on issues for more effectiveness without agreeing provided they join as individuals and don't bring flags or party banners etc. 

Comrades of occupy movements, many of you are new to protest so I'll say this to you, beware of agent provocateurs both in cyberspace and in meatspace. Causing trouble and infighting and derailing good decision making is their bread and butter and they don't want your movements to succeed. Capital and the state are well funded and organised and it doesn't take much to derail a vulnerable fledgling movement with an experienced operator on the inside.

by FSB! Wed Nov 02, 2011 16:38

@Opie - I now know what your 'politics' are.  You could try addressing my arguments directly instead of shouting Tír Na Saor propaganda at me.  Or better still, read the article Cathal linked to.

@Headscratcher - You're dead right about the manifesto being written before a single tent was erected.  It is implicit in the structure of the original posting - we should be thankful that these so-called Freemen are such guileless liars.  I suspect that they've moved on Waterford because they got no traction for their 'movement' in either Cork or Dublin (AFAIK).
All the aligned lefties I know involved in the Occupy phenomenon have contributed to the process of writing manifestoes/guidelines in an open (no-one involved has been hiding their affiliations) ,democratic and respectful manner, with the exception of the SWP, who sought to take over an Occupy site by stacking a general assembly with meatpuppets long after the heavy lifting was done by others.  This phenomenon will broaden out if it strikes a chord with ordinary people, and only time will tell if this will happen.  At least spaces for the debate of political (and other) ideas has been opened up in several cities, but if either the SWP or Tír Na Saor get their way with this protest phenomenon we can kiss that goodbye.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Nov 02, 2011 18:18

Do you now?

Spell them out so, and lets have look.

Tir na saor??Did you invent that herring yourself?Or was it Fed to you?

by Brían ó Cualáin - Personal capacity Thu Nov 03, 2011 13:29

My understanding of the events on Occupy day 21 was that, yes, some SWP people came down to discuss a combined Enough/Occupy effort and that it was agreed that it would take place. From what I could see there are at most 4 SWP members out of a large group of various individuals. The video seems to confirm this but that it was overruled by a core group of individuals who seem to have decided their own set of rules which appear to contradict the worldwide Occupy openness policy.

from  http://www.occupytogether.org/faq/

"It is incredibly important to remember that this is a leaderless movement and that, in the spirit of solidarity and to create a more unified movement, it is best to put aside any personal grievances, self-interest, egos, and grudges to come together to form one solid group for your community. When people band together, no matter what their differences may be, the cause is strengthened in their numbers.

Should this occur, the groups should communicate civilly to decide which group to absorb into and delete the other groups/pages in order to prevent confusion amongst others would would like to join you. However, this is only our suggestion. There are multiple groups organizing in one city in many areas for various reasons. Do what makes sense and everyone agrees on."

by Occupier of Waterford Fri Nov 04, 2011 00:13

Yes its true that the Freemen of waterford were holding the meetings regarding the Occupation in Waterford.. But the Occupation is by the people and not by the Freemen although im sure there are many there.. We have no political organisation backing us. as for the demand regarding the Brehon law being mirrored, the general consensus is that its not relevant to the Banks, IMF and current matters.. its not a demand by the camp and the facebook etc have been rectified.

by Cathal Sat Nov 05, 2011 15:08

@occupier of waterford. Yes, although initially Occupy Waterford seemed to be Freeman dominated, other people and ideas seem to also be involved now. I'm glad to see this.

To clarify my comment on crypto-anti-semitic conspiracy theories. I was referring mainly to the conspiracies of David Icke. The "is he anti-semitic or just an idiot who believe lizards run the world?" debate has raged for years about him. And Icke hardly redeems himself when he defends himself by saying: "the families in positions of great financial power obsessively interbreed with each other. But I'm not talking about one earth race, Jewish or non-Jewish. I'm talking about a genetic network that operates through all races, this bloodline being a fusion of human and reptilian genes."

In any case, the real question this leads to is what kind of a group would promote such nonsense? The article I linked to answers that question very well I think.

by Serf Sun Nov 06, 2011 03:00

Cathal, your evidence free conjectures that there exist connections with nutjob david icke and the occupy group in waterford are really not helping anyone. In fact they can only serve to damage a fragile emerging movement. Why would you be trying to do such a thing?

This kind of smearing is very surprising coming from a member of a widely respected group like the wsm.
Perhaps other members of the group would like to comment on your public statements?

by Occupy to awaken - Occupy waterford Sun Nov 06, 2011 21:05

Hi all,

We are after coming out of the blocks running here in Waterford. We landed last Tues and already we have over 20 tents, a Gazebo, a stove, gas barbecues, daily generous donations, and HUGE support from the local popluation. I want to clarify a few points raised by certain armchair critics who are all mouth and no action:

The point of printing demands beforehand was to raise public awareness to the local occupy movement. As a result we had the local papers, radio and national journalists on site at exactly 12pm for the start of the occupation. We made local papers with front page spreads, photos and write ups in national papers, a studio interview on WLR within 2 days and news bulletins every hour on the hour on all local radio stations for the first day. So put your demands out there first? Too right.

On the leaflet there is a mention of the brehon laws. All we were highlighting is that the principles of the brehon laws are what should be considered. They are based on something very simple. Fairness. In the brehon system, the hearing did not cease until both parties were happy. Under our current system of law(the british penal system), somebody who you have never met has authority over you and either makes you pay a fine or imprisons you whether you plead guilty or not-guilty, regardless of whether there is an injured party or not. This system itself is seriously outdated and only serves the ambitions of the elitists in this country and needs to be reformed. Lets debate it.

The whole idea of having a list of demands is to get debate going, which guess what, we have managed to do as you are talking about it arent you? Everything is up for debate, we are all collectively suffering with a system that takes rather than provides, it is up to us to unify and create a better world for all of us and for the generations to come. So lets stop the ridiculous comments like, they are all anti-semetic? I mean how much of an idiot do you sound like coming out with complete shite like that? Lets drop the cyber ego-fulfillment jibes and come together and offer up SOLUTIONS as really, that is what the occupy movement is all about.

Occupy Waterford is not suggesting that everyone in the country agrees with the demands on its flyer but hopes it will point us all in the right direction to get the debate flowing about how we can really resolve the issues that are hurting us the most at present. This movement is not going away, all the different groups are being run autonomously globally, which is the way it should be, but we are all reaching out to each other with help and advice and we share very similar organisational structures and ideologies.

Lets Occupy Together, lets bring about real change together.
Love from Occupy Waterford

by Cathal Mon Nov 07, 2011 15:06

I'm sure anyone reading this will note the difference in what I have actually said in my two short comments, and what some of the people responding are pretending I said.

Anyway, to clarify: The original Occupy Waterford leaflet was almost all Freeman ideas. This concerned me, as I find the Freeman's politics to be problematic to say the least (more details on why can be found in this article from the latest edition of the WSM magazine, Irish Anarchist Review, here: http://www.wsm.ie/c/anarchist-critique-freeman-movement).

I see now that there are more non-Freemen people involved in Occupy Waterford. This is great, it would a shame to see the Occupy Movement go down the political dead end of conspiracy theories and legal straw men nonsense.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Nov 07, 2011 15:12

I followed your comments and link from the beginning.

I found your comments half-cocked and egotistic, as is the link with its presumptions of superiority. I reckon you should read that last paragraph in your link, and dispense with the rest. It basically says we should retain our critical faculties....dooh.

Jaysis preserve us from  organised anarkissstzzz.

by serf Mon Nov 07, 2011 15:26

cathal, every post you made was an invitation to read a certain article.  sounds more like an advertising campaign for a website / article than a supportive comment on an emerging movement. 

Did you yourself write this (rather uninspiring!) article you are relentlessly plugging here at the expense of the waterford occupy movement??  does insinuating they are linked to lunatic fringe conspiracists and anti semiticism help promote your article better and get it some more hits?  What do other members of the wsm have to say about this behaviour??

by Occupy Brisbane Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:18 Brisbane, Queensland, Australia

Friends, I want to thank you for the invitation to speak to you today.  It remains for me a badge of honour that I have been asked twice to speak to the Occupy Brisbane movement.

I said that when I first spoke to you that your movement represented the best hope for the kind of world which I wanted my grandchildren to grow up in.  I believe that still.

Since then you have been mocked in the media and you have been ridiculed and made fun of in cyber space. Politicians from all sides have sneered at you and their loyal servants, the Queensland police force, have attacked and broken up your camps.

Yet it remains true friends that your movement represents the best hope of a world of governed by compassion, love and decency.

 I want to say a few things about the world we have. This is the world ruled and organised by the people who have mocked you.  What is our world like now?

Friends, look north south east and west and you will see that everywhere it is not working.  This morning I read about the economic crisis in Greece.  That crisis has been joined by the crises in Cyprus and in Italy. All of Europe trembles on the verge of total economic destruction.  Poverty and misery lies in store for the people of Europe and yet here in Brisbane politicians and the media dare to make fun of you.

The politicians say to you  “You have made your point.  Now go away!” We say to that arrogance, you have not got our point at all.  We are saying that the world you control and rule is not working.  We want a better world. And we will stay here until we get it.

Now there are two elements in our criticism of this world.  We say it doesn’t work. I have talked of the crisis in Greece, in Italy, and in Cyprus and throughout Europe. In America the home of the most powerful capitalist nation, millions live in dire poverty and their numbers are increasing every day.  People are losing their jobs.  People are losing their homes.  The economic system that has created a world where 1%  own most of the wealth is rocked by crisis after crisis.  It cannot stabilise itself for more than a year or two.

We are now faced with the very real possibility of another Great Depression, where millions will starve.

There is another source of criticism of the system we live under and that is a moral criticism. This is a world ruled by greed, fear and hatred. By greed I mean the main value is that if you are not rich then you are worth nothing. By fear I mean this is a world where we are supposed to be afraid of one another. Fear of Muslims, fear of refugees, fear of gay people.

By hatred I mean we are supposed to wake up in the morning and believe we must bomb the people of Afghanistan.  We must despise Arabs everywhere. In England they are supposed to hate travellers. In France they are supposed to despise the Roma.  Now it seems the latest news is that we all must support the coming slaughter of the people of Iran.

Well we do not want to live in that kind of world. Instead of a world dominated by greed we want a world where the wealth is shared equally.  Instead of a world full of fear, we say we want a world full of compassion.  Instead of a world ruled by hatred, we say we want a world full of the power of love.

 How are we to get to that kind of world? Certainly those who rule us and sneer at us cannot give us a decent world. Now can they give us security. But friends this week in Oakland California, the occupy movement showed how we might get to a better world.  The people of Oakland came out in their tens of thousands in support of the Occupiers.  This week they shut down the fourth largest port in the United States. They swarmed onto the port in their thousands and the workers joined them.

There are over 900 occupations throughout America and Occupy Oakland has shown us how they will win.

Now I want to say that I understand how things are in Brisbane. I have been to the General Assemblies and I have listened to your discussions.  I want to say to you with all my strength,  do not be afraid.  Do not listen to the shameful voices that say you have not been militant enough and that you have not stood your ground.   Do not listen to any suggestion that you have betrayed the Occupy movement.

I say that is nonsense.  Whatever you do will be ok, because you will act democratically.  You will talk openly and come to your decisions together.  Now I will be honest with you and say that I am a Marxist communist and of course I think you have much to learn from Marxism how capitalism works and why it cannot be reformed but must be totally replaced.

But we Marxists have also much to learn from you.  For weeks now you have stood your ground and tried to build a better community. Above all you have shown Marxists like me what democracy looks like, and for that I thank you.

by The Venom Viper - None Fri Dec 02, 2011 20:00

From different people I know who have been Inside the occupy waterford camp, freeman on the land Ideas are very heavily pushed and promoted' Ideas and beliefs as such you don't have to pay parking fines or speeding fines, and you don't have to pay motor tax and how to deregister your birth cert' that is what is really being promoted at occupy waterford'for anyone not aware of what the freeman movement is' check this info on their youtube channel (Learn all about your true rights as a Sovereign on the land of Eire and further afield. Learn why you don't have to pay rates, fines, taxes, mortgages, credit cards, overdrafts, term loans) and check the two videos on how not to pay parking fines and how not to take responsibility for your actions.

They are also offering debt free advice to people who come into the camp, there's two concerns I have about that'do those giving debt free advice at occupy waterford have any qualifications and training in that area to giving people advice on debt? and two do they even any experience in dealing with debt,getting out of debt succesfully, have they ever even in debt in their lives?

My overall thoughts wrong movement by the wrong people going in the wrong direction with the freeman on the land approach'the advice they give does far more harm then good anyone who has ever taken their advice in dealing with fines or not paying motor taxes has gotten even heavier fines and longer jail sentences' if people were take their other advice on board and apply the logic of deregister your birth cert' how not to consent to be goverened' the consequences and implications would be no access to social welfare' no access to medical cards' no access to rent allowance' no access to travel passes' I know times are tough now in the present' if people want to try and do something go and take part in marches like the one last saturday and other ones after the budget' but please don't waste your time and energy getting Involved or listening to any freeman nonesense at occupy waterford.