FF Ard Fheis - No Rest for the Wicked

by R Sat Oct 11, 2003 20:22

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1011/ardfheis.html
[Editor's note: the post below was the first post on this topic and in the haste to turn this into a feature it was accidentally deleted. It is now being restored by pasting it into "R"s second post. Apologies for any confusion this may have caused]
Reports from Fianna Fail Ard Fheis protests, Killarney
by R Sunday, Oct 12 2003, 5:22pm
Shameful turnout but fair play to those that made it!

Reports coming in that about 30 protesters (mostly Anti-War/Peaceniks) attended Fianna Fail Ard Fheis today.'Blackpope' has been arrested on a public order offence and is in custody. There are about 7 people outside in solidarity with him.

Updates from Fintan (Cork Anti-War) at 087 1258325

QUESTION: Is the Irish Anti-War movement dead?
QUESTION: Where are all the peace activists?
QUESTION: What's preventing the moaning masses (health care, education, community sector) from taking it to the streets?
QUESTION: Are we as activists becoming too tame, too sterile, too tired?

Today was a prime focal point for striking home much needed messages to the Irish government and to the mass media. It would appear that the opportunity may have been lost.......

Time to RISE UP O TIMID COUNTRYMEN!

by The Insider Sat Oct 11, 2003 20:31

- They're the Man United of Irish Politics. That team is supported by people who don't know much about football.

Image, it's all about image. Sure isn't oul Bertie one of us, one of de lads. Not a bad ould sort.

by Angry activist Sat Oct 11, 2003 20:33

Anti bin tax Protest in Dublin, were you not aware of this 'R'? Thats why a lot of people who would have went down to Killarney instead took part in the Anti bin protest organised by the Dublin Council of Trade Unions to Mountjoy prison.

by Rrrrr... Sat Oct 11, 2003 22:57

The Black Pope was released about an hour ago. Protest was small (about 30 people, mostly from Cork, Limerick, with a few heads from Fairview in Dublin). Hardly any locals. Despite the small numbers it worked well with a number of government ministers and bertie aherne himself being given the hard word as they went in. Cowen was caught good - up close. The Pope was arrested for stepping on the grass!!!!

by tv watcher Sun Oct 12, 2003 00:41

This is the first Ard Fheis (and it wasn't even a proper one, no votes!) held OUTSIDE Dublin.

You can garantee that if they had held it in Dublin, the bin tax protest would have been outside. I think they were boxing clever by moving it into the sticks.

Also, I saw Ahern's keynote speech on de telly. Apart from laughing my arse off at some ginger be-mulleted delegate, Ahern sounded like he was just rushing through his speech in an effort to get to the bar asap.

he did deliver this ditty though: "We are a party marked by history, driven by hope."

And that about summed up the bland nature of his speech.

by Precision Man Sun Oct 12, 2003 01:43

Did he make any further comments regarding spongers? After all, there are so many of them in his 'feena fall' party.

Was Super Sponger there? Maybe he could make a few thousand offering to change the name of Castleisland into Waterville, or has he been told by the ff spin doctors to keep a low profile?

I have a distinct feeling that the ff party has long passed it's 'sell by' date.

by Big John Sun Oct 12, 2003 02:10

I suggest it would be more accurate of him to say, "We are a party which has left a dirty mark on history, a party that tramples on hope"

by Tad pissed off Sun Oct 12, 2003 02:11

You mean from Dublin, don't you? Oh yes, everybody else has to drag their sorry asses to Dublin but you lot won't leave your home comforts.

Actually, as a matter of fact, there is a train to Killarney, though it is soooo far away. Christ, are you people for real? And don't give me this bin charges excuse - we all understand a lot of lefties wanting to stay in Dublin for that but ALL of them?? The SWP, SP, WSM, etc etc, couldn't spare a few people? No, sorry, they've moved on to the next issue.

by Mankind Sun Oct 12, 2003 02:42

Q: Is the Irish Anti war Movement dead?

A: On Feb 15th the promise of direct action was made by all on cue from Richard Boyd Barret from the stage. No direct action materialised. If the government were paying attention on the 15th they called the IAWM's bluff. Grassroots Network got little support for their announced action for March 1st for reasons that could be debated. So all we've had are more marches on the same old routes with the same speakers making the same speeches. Oh, and a bit of chanting goes on too. So the IAWM is not dead, it's just lazy, or out of ideas, or frightened maybe, take your pick.

Q: Where are all the peace activists?

A: Well if they were fulltime malcontents from Dublin they were busy with the bin business. If not they were at home watching sports, having decided that marches are ineffective and that they have too many personal commitments and responsibilites (families etc.) to risk provoking the law by partaking in the direct action that could possibly make a difference, should it ever be proposed.

Q: Where are the moaning masses?

A: See previous answer.

Q: Are activists sterile, tired, becoming too tame?

A: Yes. Imaginations need to be sparked again. Protest has to become something you'd hate not to be a part of. Despite the seriousness of the situation we could dare to employ more artistic imagination and humour in our efforts, and that does not mean a new rhyme for 2, 4, 6, 8. Also it seems to me that to brake the fear of direct action's possible outcomes WE ALL need to take part. A lot of people are, quite reasonably, going to need some convincing on that one. But we all need to get off are arses for God's sake, there's a war on.
What does anyone else think?

by WD Sun Oct 12, 2003 02:55

Glad 'Mankind' mentioned RBB - where is he these days? Aw fuck it, who cares. It's probably unfair to single him out anyway. All the rrrrevolutionary Marxists and anarchists have disappeared from the anti war movement.

by Dominic Carroll - Clonakilty Against the War Sun Oct 12, 2003 12:32 clonakiltyagainstthewar at eircom dot net

On a positive note, even 30 people were able to create an annoyance at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis. Ahern, Cowan and Lenihan were properly abused and that’s no bad thing.

However, the turn-out for what was supposed to be an IAWM-supported protest at the Ard Fheis of the party in government was pitiful. Of the sixteen people recently elected to the Steering Committee of the IAWM, only one – as far as I’m aware – was present yesterday (Fintan Lane). Of course, the bin-tax protest would, to a certain extent, account for the small turn-out, but surely anyone on the Steering Committee (particularly the Chairperson) has a responsibility to either attend an IAWM protest or at least apologise for their absence. More importantly, they need to take responsibility for the poor turn-out in Killarney by their failure to effectively promote and build for the protest.

As it happens – given the open-plan layout of the Gleneagle Hotel – 300 people might have been able to close this Ard Fheis down. Certainly, we would have had a good chance of disrupting Ahern’s televised speech (the only purpose for the Ard Fheis).

The IAWM has called a march for Shannon in November. Can we be told now whether we can expect more than 30 people? Will the IAWM actually build for this march and organise transport? Will the people elected to the Steering Committee be in attendance? If not, they should resign.

by Wuz in Killarney Sun Oct 12, 2003 13:05

Fair fucks to the 3 or 4 SWPers who came to Killarney. But why oh why must they try and sell de paper? There were no takers among the Fianner Failers (hee hee) and the other 26 on the protest weren’t inerested. When the SWP start holding placards like everyone else, they might piss less people off.

Now, where was the Socialist Party? Don’t say Mountjoy. Surely 1 of them could have made it.
And the WSM?
And SF?
And the Greens?

Are they not embarassed to be out-attended by the Catholic Workers?

And fair fucks to the Catholic Workers.

by Tim Sun Oct 12, 2003 15:24

I agree with Dominic that the small group did get its message across.

It was impossible for the FF faithful to ignore us, especially with the Black Pope and his famous megaphone set-up.

the FF faithful who turned up to listen to the FF*#%ING LIARS and beg for crumbs from their table, had to endure hours of constant exposure to the cold hard truth.



The Gardai tried to keep us as far away as possible. The tried to move us accross the road. We refused. The tried to keep us off the grass, we refused.
The arrested Eoin Rice for walking on the grass and so the rest of us went and occupied the grass and continued our speak out from the wee grassy knoll.

A lot of the delegates were out at the front of the hotel for ages, and the line of police and flimsy barriers did not protect their delicate little eyes and ears from the pictures, the banners, or the questions.

Some of the delegates expressed disgust at the use of Shannon.

They were asked via the BlackPope (tm) speak-o-matic if they were proud of their criminal lying leadership, if they were proud to shake their greasy hands and beg for crumbs and planning permission, and the lobby groups for good causes were asked if they thought it was good that they had to grovel to scum for things they should already have.

several ministers had to endure loud criticism while they tried to mingle with the faithful.
Brennan, McCreevy, Cowen, Bertie, and my good pal Willie O Dea all got a good dose of truth in their ears.

By the way Dom, there was more than one IAWM steering committee member at the demo. Fintan Lane, Cara Wallace and I are all newly appointed to the committee and we all turned up and played our part.

by Tim. Sun Oct 12, 2003 15:30

also there was short bit of stand up to break the monotony and also the chanting (HEY HEY! HO HO! Mindless chants have got to go!)

anyhow, here's the joke we broadcast to the FFaithful and FF*#%ing LIARS alike.

in an Irish hospital hit hard by spending cuts, three people come in having been seriously injured. - they have each been knocked down by G.V. Wright - and need surgery.

surgeons try to assess the difficulty of each operation.

Well, says the first surgeon, this guy should be easy enough. He's an accountant. You open them up and everything is labelled and cross referenced.

Even easier says the second surgeon, my patient is an engineer.
You open her up and everything is colour coded.

The third says, mine is the least complicated job.
This guy is Bertie Ahern. - very simple anatomy.
you open him up, and find that he is brainless, gutless and spineless and that his head is interchangable with his asshole!

by Dominic Carroll - Clonakilty Against the War Sun Oct 12, 2003 15:34 clonakiltyagainstthewar at eircom dot net

Sorry Tim and Cara – I'm afraid I have no idea of the composition of the Steering Committee of the IAWM because its membership has yet to be announced. But I do apologise to you both for my comment regarding Steering Committee absences.

by attentive reader Sun Oct 12, 2003 16:43

Way Hey! Black Pope!

:-)
sunday papers:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/10/278718.html

by Fintan Lane - IAWM and Cork Anti-War Campaign Sun Oct 12, 2003 18:13 corkantiwar at hotmail dot com 087 1258325

It is certainly true that yesterday's turnout was lower than should have been the case. About 30 people turned out in a town (as one poster points out above) that is connected to the rest of the country by a railway. It's not Ballygobackwards. Those present were mostly from Munster (Limerick and Cork were well represented), though members of Fairview Against the War also travelled, as did some other Dublin activists such as the Black Pope (Eoin Rice),Damien Moran of the Catholic Workers Movement, and Justin and John Morahan.

However, despite the size of the picket, it was extremely effective with three entrances covered at all times. The Gleneagle was wide open and the gardai were incrediably badly deployed, allowing us to get reasonably close to Bertie Ahern and right on top of Brian Cowen. The private security provided by Fianna Fail was a shambles. A number of TDs and other ministers (such as Dick Roche and Brian Lenihan) also received a roasting as they arrived. In general, it was impossible to miss the picket and banners were displayed in front of an important junction on a busy road outside the hotel. The focus throughout was on the misuse of Shannon airport and on Irish government complicity with the U.S. war machine.

The arrest of the Black Pope occurred later in the evening and was without any obvious justification. Eoin had kept up a megaphone barrage against the delegates throughout the day and he steadfastly refused to be intimidated by the clumsy and, at times, heavy handed efforts of the gardai to minimise his impact. In the end, they exercised their frustration by arresting him under the Public Order Act for standing on some grass adjoining the hotel. Following his arrest, about a dozen of us repaired to the garda station where we maintained a vigil until his release later that night. We also contacted the local media and Radio Kerry carried an interview with myself on their 6pm news condemning Eoin's arrest and calling for his immediate release. Interestingly, later broadcasts covered the story by quoting the gardai and taking their line on the matter, which is a reminder (if we needed it) of the conservative approach of many media outlets in this country.

All in all, it was a most effective picket that could have had a much greater impact if larger numbers had turned out. Frankly, with larger numbers we could have easily outflanked the gardai and entered the conference hall. Particular credit is due to the Black Pope whose lungs know no bounds, and to the Fairview and Catholic Workers activists who made the effort to travel all the way from Dublin.

With regard to the involvement of the IAWM: yes, it was poor, and efforts at mobilisation were localised and limited. However, as pointed out above, three members of the steering committee were present: myself (Cork), Tim Hourigan (Limerick), and Cara Wallace (Tralee). The membership of the IAWM national steering committee is available in the following report that I posted on indymedia some time back:

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61391

by Fintan Lane Mon Oct 13, 2003 00:05

I forgot to mention that we also spotted Aine Ni Chonaill (Immigrant Control Platform) skulking about the place. She was once a member of the Progressive Democrats; perhaps she's joined Fianna Fail, which would be no big surprise since it contains racists such as Noel O'Flynn TD. I questioned her on this, but she just winced and wrinkled her face.

by winnie Mon Oct 13, 2003 00:59

a small turn out...a committed voice of protest that wont go away .New ways of getting across the message?To live in a "neutral" country is a rare enough privelege globally speaking...and yes its shameful that more people didnt turn out ...but thanks to the 30 or so that made speaking out against the collusion with the war machine more important than anything else on saturday.A sobering thought that children who had one or two fingers blown off in the war are now having whole arms amputated,their original amutations having gone rotten and infected as there are NO ANTIBIOTICS to prevent infection.This is happening NOW.(see the Ecologist 2003 )1OOO children blown up by unexploded cluster bombs since the "END"of the war.(they look like footballs...)And no antibiotics or proper medecines in most of Iraq.Medecines are small and light.How many would fit in a suitcase,or even one aeroplane.How much needless suffering would be prevented if IRELAND sent one plane load of medecines to IRAQ...QUESTION..would it be breaking the sanctions on Iraq to do so? May be it is a duty of the very few neutral countries to lead the world and send true humanitarian aid in.Lets hold the government accountable for their abuse of our neutrality,but also a new approach could incorporate Walking the Truth of neutrality by sending antibiotics instead of U.S.planes on their way.A great many Irish folk would support this ...Any comment?Anyone know if the sanctions on medecines still being enforced?

by tv watcher Mon Oct 13, 2003 02:48

'Week in Politics' on rte earlier tonight carried some footage of picket in Killarney. Looked good.

by Dominic Carroll - Clonakilty Against the War Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:01 clonakiltyagainstthewar at eircom dot net

Aoife Ni Fhearghail, a member of the IAWM Steering Committee, has described my observations and criticisms contained in the first posting here as “untrue and completely unhelpful” and as “petty bickering”. My comments were also posted on the IAWM anti-war site, and though Aoife mentions Indymedia in her reply, she has chosen not to respond here. So, in the interests of a balanced debate, I include her IAWM posting here and I respond below.

Aoife Ni Fhearghail on FF Ard Fheis
“Congratulations to the Tralee Anti-War Group on what seems to have been a well-organised demonstration and to everyone who supported them in Killarney.

Comments like the first post are untrue and completely unhelpful.

There was a bus organised from Dublin but only 2 people contacted us to book seats and we subsequently had to cancel it (contrary to popular belief the irish anti-war movement does not actually have any money and cannot throw away €700 on a whim).

Several individuals were contacted to see if they could drive to Kerry for the demonstration but for different reasons were unable.

The suggestion that steering committee members should resign because they were not in Killarney is ridiculous. Some of us were prepared to go but had no transport and others were committed to attending the anti-bin charges rally.

Being on the steering committee of the anti-war movement should not mean that individuals are prohibited from attending other events or from lending their solidarity to jailed activists or from expressing an opinion on other issues.

If we are going to successfully oppose the government's support for this war, then we have to accept that while there are differences of opinion on a wide range of issues within the movement, the best way forward is to try to work together despite these differences, petty bickering on this site or indymedia does nothing to help stop the occupation of iraq.”

Aoife Ni Fhearghail

Dominic Carroll Responds
Which of my comments is untrue?
“Yesterday’s IAWM-supported protest at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis in Killarney must be rated a near-failure.”
True.

“Thirty anti-war activists from Tralee, Limerick, Shannon, Cork, Clonakilty, Dublin (Fairview) and Galway made the trip to Killarney.”
True.

“On a positive note, the protest was vibrant and even thirty people were able to create an annoyance at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis. Ahern, Cowan and Lenihan were properly abused and that’s no bad thing. One person – the Black Pope – was arrested for walking on the grass and speaking the truth. Around fifteen people waited at the Police Station until he was released (about two hours after his arrest).”
True.

“However, the turn-out for what was supposed to be an IAWM-supported protest at the Ard Fheis of the party in government was pitiful. Of the sixteen people recently elected to the Steering Committee of the IAWM, only one – as far as I’m aware – was present yesterday (Fintan Lane).”
Here, I was incorrect, rather than untrue. I stated that only one member of the Steering Committee was present as far as I was aware. This was subsequently corrected by Tim Hourigan (himself a member of the Steering Committee) – he pointed out that three of the sixteen-member Steering Committee were present, and I apologised here for my error.

According to Aoife, “The suggestion that steering committee members should resign because they were not in Killarney is ridiculous.” But I didn’t say that. I said this: “Of course, the bin-tax protest would, to a certain extent, account for the small turn-out, but surely anyone on the Steering Committee (particularly the Chairperson) has a responsibility to either attend an IAWM protest or at least apologise for their absence. More importantly, they need to take responsibility for the poor turn-out in Killarney by their failure to effectively promote and build for the protest.” No mention at that point of resignations.

Later in the posting, I said this: “The IAWM has called a march for Shannon in November. Can we be told now whether we can expect more than thirty people? Will the IAWM actually build for this march and organise transport? Do the other fifteen people elected to the Steering Committee intend to be there? If not, they they should resign.” I think it should be clear – even to Aoife, who tends to start typing before assimilating a comment – that if the Shannon demo is destined to be as poorly promoted as Saturday’s in Killarney, this is unacceptable, and if Steering Committee members fail to show up without an explanation at a poorly promoted and unacceptably small protest, they should resign.

When I criticised the IAWM Website (and by extension, the Steering Committee) earlier in the week for not actively promoting the Killarney protest, I received an e-mail from Aoife Ni Fhearghail which included the following: “The IAWM website does not have details of anything (including tralee) agreed at the recent AGM yet. Reasons being a) there has not been a steering committee meeting yet, and b) myself & lawrence who have been dealing with the website have not had a chance to do anything in the last fortnight.” Well, that’s an explanation (!) but not an excuse. Apparently, because the incoming Steering Committee has not met yet, Aoife felt prevented from promoting the Tralee protest on the IAWM Website!

To conclude, I stand by my original criticism of the IAWM Steering Committee for its failure to actively and effectively build for the Killarney protest. The failure, it seems to me, is due to the lackadaisical running of the IAWM. Although the new Steering Committee was elected on Sunday 28th September, its first meeting is not scheduled until this Saturday 18th October. Three newly elected members of the incoming Steering Committee attended the demo in Killarney. The outgoing chairperson and secretary didn’t. I understand that they are actively involved in the bin-tax campaign. Good luck to them. I also appreciate the work they have put into running the IAWM. Now, however, they should consider relinquishing their positions on the Steering Committee in favour of people not otherwise engaged, so as to ensure that the IAWM protest at Shannon – and other work of the movement – is taken more seriously than the protest in Killarney apparently was.

by Admirer Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:36

Aoife’s right and is to be congratulated for her work in building the magnificent protest at Fianna Fail’s AGM in Killarney. The enormous crowd of thirty had travelled from all corners of Ireland, inspired as they were by the IAWM’s inspirational posters, its state-of-the-art website and email campaign, and its veritable media blitz. If it had forgotten, Fianna Fail surely now knows that the Irish Anti-War Movement is a force to be reckoned with.

I never ceased to be amazed at just how ungrateful some people can be. After all her work, is it thanks Aoife and Richard get? No, just old-fashioned begrudgery. Aoife, why don’t you resign to teach the begrudgers a lesson. Give them a week and they’ll be pleading for you to come back and lead them.

by John Jefferies - Cork Anti War Campaign Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:07

Just a few photos of Saturday's anti-war demonstration at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis in Killarney.
As the event is amply covered in other newswire stories, I'll just include the photos without further comment.

Gardaí arrest Eoin Rice for walking on the grass

Eoin Rice (The Black Pope) with his "weapon" of mass saturation

Smirking officer lays down the law about walking on the grass

by John Jefferies - Cork Anti War Campaign Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:07

Just a few photos of Saturday's anti-war demonstration at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis in Killarney.
As the event is amply covered in other newswire stories, I'll just include the photos without further comment.

by John Jefferies - Cork Anti War Campaign Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:07

Just a few photos of Saturday's anti-war demonstration at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis in Killarney.
As the event is amply covered in other newswire stories, I'll just include the photos without further comment.

Aren't we a happy bunch?

Colourful Catholic Workers banner displayed outside

by Anonymous Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:30

Dominic, would you be prepared to be on the IAWM Steering committee? I for one certainly propose you. Do I hear a seconder? If everyone on the committee showed your same enthusiasm I do not think the campaign would be dwindling to the same extent that it is now.

by :-) Mon Oct 13, 2003 13:07

you've got my white smoke!

by Sylvia Pankhurst - Eco Soc Mon Oct 13, 2003 13:22

I usually travel to anti-war events - I didn't travel to this as there is no point - how would this impact on the use of Shannon for military re-fuelling, woud 300 people in Killarney have made a difference that 100,000 plus in Dublin didn't???
Forget about the politicans - put pressure on the companies!!! (I was actually leafletting about Top Oil Boycott that day, rather than bin charges or TV). Sorry to be so negative folks but we need to use our resources strategically. There are more useful things to do than disrupt Fianna Fail pr spectacles.

by Anonymous Mon Oct 13, 2003 13:31

Is it not a question of either/or Sylvia, but rather both?

by Tim Mon Oct 13, 2003 15:10

"I usually travel to anti-war events - I didn't travel to this as there is no point - how would this impact on the use of Shannon for military re-fuelling, woud 300 people in Killarney have made a difference that 100,000 plus in Dublin didn't???"


Yes. there were no FF delegates or TDs at the demo in Dublin.
The FFaithful and the FF*#%ing Liars were trying to have a cosy ard fheis to boost their image and their morale.

They've done enough damage to our morale by calling the bluff of 100,000 marchers and getting away with it.

300 people in Killarney would have done far more damage to the FF morale than 30.

The delegates were left with no ambiguity that their party was led by criminals who refused to answer the public. They endured literally hours of criticism which they could not censor even after the arrest of Eoin Rice.

Some of the delegates even agreed with the protest.

If we're only planning on marching and not considering targetting the real criminals why bother calling them criminals if you're not even interested at shaming them when they appear in public to open a pub or make a speech?

We've had enough of the "can't do" attitude in general.

These people are criminal scum and they know it.
They just get an easy life because few people are 'rude' enough to point it out to them in person.

As long as public perception of FF is relatively strong, it will be hard to push them politically or attack them through the courts.

by Gloria Mon Oct 13, 2003 15:20

marching around dublin preaching to the converted or calling a minister a lying criminal in front of hundreds of FF members? and they don't even have the guts to stand up to you in front of their own members!

by Tim Mon Oct 13, 2003 15:32

I agree with that from one angle.
let's not "ask" Bertie and Mary etc to start playing nice and do the right thing.
let's stop appealing to their morals, they left them behind years ago.

but these are the people who helped the US military to murder tens of thousands of human beings.
That's something we should not forget, and we should not let them forget it either.

There's too much apathy about politicians.
sure we let them get away with lots of stuff, - tax dodgers, liars, crumbling schools, - but this is a whole new league of offence.

Michael Collins TD (Tax Dodger) should be hounded not for the money, but because as an FF TD he played his part in helping to incinerate children, their parents and their houses.

GV Wright TD (drink driver) should be hounded, not just for endangering that nurse, but for helping to massacre defenceless women, men and children in Iraq.

If we're happy enough to leave these amoral scum in power then what the hell are we doing condemning G.W. Bush and Tony Blair?

by biffo Mon Oct 13, 2003 17:04

Kilarney Photos

the Black Pope arrested

by biffo Mon Oct 13, 2003 17:05

Black Pope arrested

by biffo Mon Oct 13, 2003 17:57

http://boston.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/bpinkilarneykr41jo.mov

by Dominic Carroll - Clonakilty Against the War Mon Oct 13, 2003 18:24 clonakiltyagainstthewar at eircom dot net

The Irish Examiner (Monday 13th October 2003) reported the anti-war protest at Saturday’s Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis on Saturday:

On the failure of consensus on Iraq to be maintained, Mr Cowen said it was unfortunate that a second resolution had not been agreed. As anti-war protestors maintained a presence outside this weekend’s Ard Fheis, Mr Cowan insisted neutrality had not been called into question by the Government’s granting of facilities to US troops and flights at Shannon during the war. “The consistent advice of attorney generals to successive Irish Governments on this point is the provision of such facilities does not, in international law, constitute a participation by Ireland in a military action,” he said.’

Elsewhere in the same issue of the Irish Examiner, under the heading ‘No time for protest here … there’s a party on’:

‘Around 3pm and just when delegates were beginning to think about scaling down the speeches and to get ready for the Ireland versus Switzerland game, the Gleneagle’s security barriers were breached. About five protestors ran at Foreign Affairs Minister Brian Cowen before gardaí and a private security firm eventually hauled them away. One man was arrested but was later released.’

by Anonymous Mon Oct 13, 2003 19:16

It dosen't need an attorney general to decide on the neutrality issue.

It is common sense that fueling military aircraft and assisting troop deployment is assiting a military opertion (made all the worse as it was unsanctioned), thus violating our neutrality.

Dominic - you did not answer my question re: steering committee??

by Sylvia Pankhurst Mon Oct 13, 2003 19:16

"Re: Sylvia - Attack both?
by Anonymous Monday, Oct 13 2003, 12:31pm

Is it not a question of either/or Sylvia, but rather both?"

Well we may have a Black Pope and some Catholic Workers but I'm not Padro Pio ; ) - i.e. I can't be in two places at the one time - I'm either out on the street with top oil leaflets or I'm down in Killarney - actually of course ones handier than the other..but anyways. No to address the point I'd make the minor sacrifice of a weekend if I thought it was going to do any good but can anyone show me the cause-effect relationship here 'shout at politicans - politicans change their policy'????.
I think not.

DA (of all varieties) created a security threat Shannon - companies pulled out - it was costing them. Likewise a consumer boycott can cost Top Oil..writing to, marching at, shouting at, or blockading politicans is not likely to force a change in policy now, if it didn't six months ago.

by Anonymous Mon Oct 13, 2003 19:35

You make a good point Sylvia. Maybe indeed more or the majority of energy should now be poured into trying to stop Top - with the odd pulic demo thrown it to keep the pressure on the gov. & attract media attention.

by Tim Mon Oct 13, 2003 19:35

"It dosen't need an attorney general to decide on the neutrality issue."

actually, let's think here for a second.

----- Mr Cowan insisted neutrality had not been called into question by the Government’s granting of facilities to US troops and flights at Shannon during the war
"The consistent advice of attorney generals to successive Irish Governments on this point is the provision of such facilities does not, in international law, constitute a participation by Ireland in a military action,” he said.’
" ----

okay.

first off, he's ignoring the judgment of the Ed Horgan case.
The High Court ruled that the government was breaking the law - so Cowen is talking shit as usual.

secondly.
Before the non-vote in the Dail (on the day the shock and awe killfest began) the Taoiseach mentioned that a copy of this advice was
circulated to TDs for the debate, but this turned out to be incorrect and its absence was queried in the Dail by some TDs. Ed Horgan also looked for this information in his High Court case but it was not forthcomming.

conclusion?
They refuse to show us the AG's advice, they say that the AG told them it was all above board and hope we don't push harder.
They ignore the ruling of the High court as if they had never been seriously challenged (and defeated) on a point of law.

-the tactic?
Keep on lying, sure nobody's gonna pull us up on it!

-the result?
Up to us citizens as usual. Do we give up and let them off scott free or do we now, having enough evidence to bury them go after them with a vengance?

by Fintan Lane Mon Oct 13, 2003 20:43

I don't understand why Sylvia sees a conflict between promoting the Boycott Top Oil Campaign and pickets such as the one just held in Killarney. The objective of the anti-war movement in Ireland is not to harass or bother Top Oil, it is to end the refuelling of US warplanes at Shannon airport. If Top Oil withdraws it will be a great victory, but it will not be enough if government policy remains unchanged.

Why? Well, firstly, because they would be replaced by another greedy company within 24 hours; and, secondly, because they are not responsible for the continued refuelling at Shannon. Yes, they are doing wrong and we should do everything in our power to get them to pull out, but refuelling is happening because of government policy not because Top Oil are available to work the pumps. Please don't misunderstand me: I fully support the Boycott Top Oil Campaign and see it as an important tactic! However, ultimately this is a problem with government and I have no interest in letting them off the hook. Fianna Fail and the PDs are complicit in the killing of thousands of people in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they have incorporated an Irish civilian airport into the US war machine. The anti-war movement in Ireland, if it is to succeed, has to view itself as an explicitly anti-government movement. Going after Top Oil alone, and ignoring the crimes of those in political power, misses the point and in fact lets them off the hook.

Fianna Fail members would have been delighted if we had decided not to turn up last Saturday. The anti-war movement needs to directly target these people on an ongoing basis, and it needs to continue the focus on Shannon airport. We'll be going back to Shannon in November and I do hope you'll join us then, Sylvia. Diversity of tactics, and so on.

by Ciaron - Pit Stop Ploughshares Mon Oct 13, 2003 23:11

CONTENTS
1. Call for Solidarity with Ploughshares defendants and Opposition to Irish Complicity in the War on Iraq

2. Background

3. List of Irish Embassies worldwide

1. CALL FOR SOLIDARITY WITH IRISH PLOUGHSHARES DEFENDANTS AND OPPOSITION TO IRISH COMPLICITY INTHE WAR ON IRAQ

The Pit Stop Ploughshares have called for solidarity vigils at Irish Embassies & Consuls and sites of significance on Monday November 3rd.

Deirdre Clancy, Nuin Dunlop, Karen Fallon, Damien Moran & Ciaron O'Reilly will appear for mention in the Four Courts on Nov. 3rd. They face to counts of criminal damage (200 euro & 2.5 million euro) and a maximum sentence of 10 years if convicted at trial. Charges arise out of their Feb. 4th. nonviolent disarmament of a U.S. Navy War Plane at Shannon Airport (County Clare) en route to the war on Iraq.

The five hope to be accomPAnied to court by Gareth Pierce who freed the "Guilford 4", "Birmingham 6" and successfully defended the "Seeds of Hope Ploughshares" and "Quaker Ploughshares" (see www.ploughsharesactions.org). It is expected a trial date will be set on Nov. 3rd. The five have been on bail (banned form a mile radius of the U.S. embassy, banned from County Clare, required to sign on twice a week at a Garda Station).

For vigilS in

*London Ph. Scott 01727 760 953

*New York City Carmen 212 254 1640

-Irish band "Kila" are hoping to do a support gig on Sunday Nov. 2nd. at Mary House NYC CW Ph. Carmen for more info)

If you can commit to a vigil (solo or with friends) email us with your postal address on pitstopploughshares@hotmail.com and we'll send you an autographed poster and inflatable hammer (tricolour with "Hammered by the Irish" on the head, as carried by the Pit Stop Ploughshares crew during the disarmament.)

2. BACKGROUND

(see www.ploughsharesireland.org)

Since January 1st. 1,246 U.S. military flights have past through Shannon Airport en route to the war on Iraq carrying 92,617 U.S. troops. Aer Rianta has made 11 million euro profit from the arrangement. The state has spent 1.82 million euro on securing the airport from the peace movement with Garda and the Army (deployed in response to the PIt Stop Ploughshares disarmament). Three private U.S. companies transporting U.S. troops pulled out of Ireland in repsonse to the Pit Stop Ploughshares disarmament.

On June 24th. vigils in solidarity with the Pit Stop Ploughshares and in opposition to the militarisation of Shannon were held in Houston, Washington DC, NYC, Chicago, Auckland, Christchurch, East Timor, El Salvador, Brussels, Gotenburg, Bulgaria, France, Vancouver, Belfast, London, Glasgow.

To view photos and reports of some of these vigils go to www.ploughsharesireland.org and click "Reports at the top of the page".

3. LIST OF IRISH EMBASSIES WORLD WIDE

www.irlgov.ie/iveagh/embassies/abroad.asp

by Fintan Lane - IAWM and Cork Anti-War Campaign Mon Oct 13, 2003 23:34

Second what Ciaron has written above. It's important that people follow through on verbal support for the Catholic Worker 5 (Pitstop Ploughshares) and participate in solidarity events. These brave people are facing serious jail time if convicted.

by No 6 Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:18

You can't nominate someone on indymedia.

"uh who nominated you?"

"Some anonymous bloke on Indymedia"

"good enough for me"

if you want to see something done, would you please get off your arse of wandering around Indymedia telling people how great they are, and that something should be done, and ACTUALLY DO IT YOURSELF.

But that would clash with your hectic lifestyle of doing feck all, aside from telling people you agree with them indymedia.

by Tim Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:34

This is another immediate priority for anyone who seriously opposed the war and Ireland's role in it.
5 real people who risked their safety and now their liberty with the objective of trying to preserve human life are facing the courts.

They've faced harsh criticism and lies from the government, the 'meejah', and even parts of the so-called left.
They've put up with this criticism with dignity and with patience and endured other problems such as the bail restrictions.

Their campaign will not be a flash in the pan effort.
They can't just hang up their placards and move on to something easier or trendier.
They face a long legal process and a maximum of ten years in prison if convicted.
Let's remember, that it's not certain that they will be convicted - Mary Kelly got support and good witnesses and was not convicted of criminal damage - but that takes hard work and dedication to arrange)

Karen, Deirdre,Damien,Nuin and Ciaron need and deserve our support.
They have quite an apparatus lined up against them, they should have plenty of genuine solid support behind them.

Now is not the time to be defeatist or think that the campaign is over.

by Sylvia Pankhurst Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:41

"However, ultimately this is a problem with government and I have no interest in letting them off the hook."

O.K. how are you going to put pressure on the government...what means do we have to *force* the government to change it's policies....we have the means to prevent the usage of Shannon airport for military re-fueling - but not to change their government's policy - we can make it impossible for them to use Shannon in this way but we can't change their minds by asking nicely or shouting at them. (and if another party was voted into government the shit would be the same) - in any case what would hurt the government more - be asked to stop re-fuelling and them doing it - or them not able to re-fuel cause it's too expensive...

Yeah I'm not a fan of Fianna Fail and the PDs but it's not a question of my loathing for politicans or my moral outrage - it's a question of how we use our energies in the most strategic way....I don't mean to knock the killarney gig - but their was a lot of posts above be-moaning the fact that people didn't show up and I'm explaining why I didn't.

Yeah I'll be down in Shannon - where it matters.

by Tim Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:39

if you want to really talk strategy, then let's TALK strategy. let's not just throw things out on indymedia, where objective criticism is often misinterpreted or misused, and certain things cannot be let out of the bag.

Tim.

by Fintan Lane Tue Oct 14, 2003 15:23

I agree with Tim. One point I'd like to make crystal clear though: I am not suggesting that we 'ask' the government for anything. We are DEMANDING and INSISTING that the government change its policy, and we should make their lives a misery until they do. That's speaking truth to power, as the Pitstop Ploughshares would put it. Ignoring the political motives for this government's complicity would be a mistake. However, as 'Sylvia' has recognised, I have moral as well as political reasons for opposing war, and I make no apologies for that.

Finally, 'Sylvia', I'm well aware of the limitations of lobby group politics, so please don't misconstruct what I'm saying.

by Ciaron - Pit Stop Ploughshares Tue Oct 14, 2003 15:55

Sylvia,
Are you saying you are going to do a solidarity presence at Shannon on Nov 3? Confirm and we'll slap it on the international mailouts.
Many thanx for your good work
Peace
Ciaron

by Deirdre - Pit Stop Ploughshares Tue Oct 14, 2003 18:10

Well done to everyone who went to the Ard Fheis and to all those involved in the Top Oil campaign. The one doesn't cancel out the other. The fact is that govenment officials need to know that the anti-war movement hasn't gone away, and the picket at the Ard Fheis and the Top Oil campaign are both legitimate ways to highlight this fact. So let's stop this bickering about whose tactics are the most effective and appreciate the diversity within the movement. The Ard Fheis picket got decent coverage on The Week in Politics on RTE, with the Black Pope's arrest shown in full, along with footage of Gardai pushing Fintan away from the grass when he was just standing there peacefully. Surely this is enough indication that the picket was a success, and thanks to all who went (I couldn't make it for personal reasons, but I've picketed outside the Dáil and know that it does have an effect, even if that's just to make politicians feel uncomfortable).

Finally, thanks to those who've pledged their support for the Pit Stop Ploughshares on this thread. We need solidarity at our pre-trial hearing on November 3rd - please come!

by Sylvia Pankhurst - Eco Soc/AF Tue Oct 14, 2003 22:42

Tim ..tried to do that - but very few people showed - Ciaron - just came out of a meeting discussing doing a planespotting tour of Shannon probably at that time, further details when we have them, - Fintan - the question is how do we *force* the government to change it's policies - i don't see how we can do that.
Seeing as people are now inverting comma'ing my pseduonom - I've put my organisational affiliations up - so you know I'm not stirring (I know all 3 of ye) but asking a genuine question and explaining why I wasn't in Killarney (which was asked above).

by John Tue Oct 14, 2003 23:16

That's a laugh! 'Sylvia Pankhurst' says she knows Tim, Ciaron, and Fintan (who've all identified themselves) but they haven't a notion, obviously, who the mystery guest is!! Could be your mother Ciaron? Or your sister Fintan? Or your aunt Tim? Bet her real name is Iam Troll.

by John Tue Oct 14, 2003 23:22

...can i just ask 'Sylvie Pankhurst' why she uses a fake name? Whats the point?

by Phuq Hedd Wed Oct 15, 2003 00:57

We can do without trolls like you on this thread. So far there's been reasonable dialogue and disagreement based upon tactics and ideas. We don't need your personalized irrelevant distraction. A big up to all the people involved in the Killarney and Top Oil events.

Still haven't guessed John? Then take a break for a week and do some thunking about it.

by James - Dublin WSM (personal capacity) Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:37

Couple people have asked so here’s my take on our absence at Killarney.

There has been regular anti-war discussion in the Dublin WSM group, though I don’t remember the Killarney event been discussed. My own view is that though it is worthy and I respect those who have the dedication to keep working away on this, my presence would have not contributed measurably to the anti-war cause. Therefore I didn’t get along.

Obviously there shouldn’t be an either/or between protests and the campaign against top oil, but given limited energy and resources choices have to be made. I agree with Sylvia’s view on the benefit of lobbying the government: how would this event impact on the use of Shannon for military re-fuelling, would 300 people in Killarney have made a difference that 100,000 plus in Dublin didn't?
Fair enough that it keeps some sort of activity ticking over, but there was a demo two weeks ago. At this stage I don’t see regular demos producing much, so it’s hard to get enthusiastic about them. I realise there is an element of a self-fulfilling prophecy about this. But just an element!

As for dropping anti-war stuff for the hot-topic of the bin tax: well WSM have been working on the bin tax for a couple years; it’s not like it’s just come up and we’ve dropped the war because it’s a less sexy matter. I remember, for instance, some of us going door to door in Stoneybatter talking to neighbours the same night as an anti-war picket of the Dail (March I think?), so we’ve been plugging away at this for ages.

In any case we are not fulltime professional activists. We try to get involved as much as we can, but there are other parts to our lives as well as other parts to our political activity. It isn’t our role to do stuff on behalf of people so we are not going to fill in the gaps – huge ones at this stage – if popular support isn’t there. More important than why politicals didn’t show in any numbers is why jo public isn’t very interested.

It’s just not possible to get to half of what’s going on. Choices have got to be made as to what we want to put our energies in. The return for the effort needed didn’t seem worth it. I understand that others like Tim and Fintan take a different view, this is good as it means that anti-war activity is kept ticking over. (So this is an explanation rather than a dissing of such protests per se.)


Also we didn’t have any involvement whatsoever in organising this. I don’t mean that you should only go to events that you organise yourself, but rather it’s not as if we called and voted for this event and then didn’t show up for it. We never ask folks to do stuff we aren’t prepared to do ourselves, so we weren’t misleading people by encouraging them to go to this. I think this was the gist of one of the concerns of Domnic had about the steering committee (which we ain’t on) and the IAWM which we were never in.


Finally Sylvia’s remarks on achieving something seem sensible to me (standard anarchist analysis I guess):
"how are you going to put pressure on the government...what means do we have to *force* the government to change it's policies....we have the means to prevent the usage of Shannon airport for military re-fueling - but not to change their government's policy - we can make it impossible for them to use Shannon in this way but we can't change their minds by asking nicely or shouting at them."
.

by MJK Wed Oct 15, 2003 16:39

Precise of the above (exact excerpts):
“I don’t remember the Killarney event been discussed.”
“My presence would have not contributed measurably to the anti-war cause.” “Therefore I didn’t get along.”
“At this stage I don’t see regular demos producing much, so it’s hard to get enthusiastic about them.”
“It isn’t our role to do stuff on behalf of people so we are not going to fill in the gaps – huge ones at this stage – if popular support isn’t there.”
“The return for the effort needed didn’t seem worth it.”
“We didn’t have any involvement whatsoever in organising this.”
“It’s not as if we called and voted for this event and then didn’t show up for it.“
“We can't change their minds by asking nicely or shouting at them.”

I must say I was surprised by this response from a member of the WSM regarding the failure of that organisation to support the protest in Killarney last Saturday (I wasn’t there myself but only because I spent the day in casualty following an accident – but I had intended to travel from Dublin by train; yes, trains DO connect Dublin with the outside world). The response posted by the WSM head sounds pretty lame to me. To say that HIS presence wouldn’t have contributed measurably to the anti-war cause must be the worst case of self-absorption/ego-mania/alienation diagnosed this year. It’s like this: 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+etc=MANY. ABC I would have thought. If however the WSM wants to forward a reasoned, considered position viz-a-viz protests, let’s hear it without the whinging.

by James - Dublin WSM (personal capacity) Wed Oct 15, 2003 17:04

1+1+1+1…=many. Certainly. And then what? Many came out on Feb 15th, not a lot changed.


My post tried to explain why we didn’t get along to something worthy. It’s not as if we are strongly opposed to the idea and didn’t come out on principle. It’s an explanation, put out there to explain, particularly to those like Tim, Fintan, etc for whom we have a lot of respect . You may agree or disagree, but there’s no whinging involved. You give exact quotes, sure but without the context that give them meaning.

Oh yeah I’m from Kerry myself, so I’m familiar with the train service there.

by Andrew - WSM Wed Oct 15, 2003 17:05

I must say I hate the tendency you sometimes find on the left into trying to 'guilt trip' people into working harder then the are capable of. I hate it most of all because it is counter productive - its doesn't give you bigger or better attendances in the future. It makes people stay away because they feel unwanted because their not willing to live up to your standards.

I reckon for anybody reading the other threads on indymedia there is no mystery as to why people may not have had the energy for yet another protest. Never mind the fact that 10 more people had just been jailed in Dublin and there was a march against this. Never mind the fact that (like it or not) it is the bin tax rather than the war that has Fianna Fail under pressure at this point in time.

When there was some hope of defeating the government on the war we put a huge amount of energy into this. This involved rowing back a bit on other committments (including the bin tax campaign). Now there is hope in defeating the government on the bin tax, is it surprising that we row back in other areas?

I guess if you are only interested in one single issue then this is disappointing. To you its blindingly obvious that this is THE important issue at ALL times. But even then having a go at those who see a more fundamental change as being required is dumb. It's just going to alienate and piss off people.

Far smarter to say, OK right now we have different priorities. I think mine are the more important ones for these reasons but I respect the fact your off doing something else and I look forward to the next time our priorities co-incide. And in the meantime lets give each other whatever support we can.

by MJK Wed Oct 15, 2003 19:04

So the priority of the multi-issue anarchist Workers’ Solidarity Movement is to ‘defeat the government’? That you only engaged in anti-war activity to ‘defeat the government’? You should get in involved with the publicans – I’d say you’d stand a good chance of ‘defeating the government’ on the smoking issue. Or join with the farmers opposed to the proposed legislation forcing cows to wear wellingons – our country cousins are up in arms over that one … Fianna Fail are tottering. Just one push from the WSM …
PS Bin-tax campaigners please note: The involvment of the WSM is only guaranteed until another another, bigger, more-likely-to-defeat-the-government issue comes up.

by redjade Wed Oct 15, 2003 19:56

to concur with andrew:
i fall into this trap too.

it would be nicer and more constructive if we said 'we didn't do this and that' more often than 'you didn't do this and that'

also we must stop talk as if 'the war' is in the past - it is the present and foreseeable future and by a lot of trial and error WE must do our part to stop it.

just a question of tactically and strategical HOW.

ok, let's all have a group hug now.

by Phuq Hedd Wed Oct 15, 2003 19:57

Funny, the WSM has the courtesy to answer the questions directly and is the only one of the non-attending organisations to do so and as a result they're attacked for not doing several things at once.

Notice how an attempt is made to claim that the WSM "does not support" the Killarney protest when in fact they state that they do and regret that their small numbers and previous commitments prevent them from doing so.

Take a flying leap MJK - it is unfortunate that more people couldn't make Killarney, but there are good reasons for it.

We apologise for the interruption and are glad to inform readers that a return to regular trolling will commence after a short ad break.

by Somebody who's not you Wed Oct 15, 2003 20:27

Sorry Phuq Hedd, we don't all share your adoration of the WSM so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop describing critical contributors as trolls.

To be honest, while I see where James and Andrew are coming from, if these comments were made by a Trotskyist I would immediately scream 'opportunism!!' Oh look, just did anyway.

The WSM dropped out of anti-war activity a long time before the bin charges thing blew up. They were nowhere to be seen in Shannon on June 21st when 10 people were arrested for war resistance. From what I read above, it seems they see no gain from continued involvement and are happy to allow others keep it 'ticking over'. No doubt, however, if the anti war movement takes off again they will be back on board (the bandwagon?) with plenty of ideas on how things should be done.

I, for one, won't be listening. Opportunism is opportunism is opportunism. They see the peace movement as just another instrument for bashing the government.

Respect to Andrew and James for being honest, though.

by MJK Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:34

Iraq - the war continues; Shannon - the refuelling continues

June 18 2003

Demonstrations against the occupation have become a regular occurrence in Iraq. So too has US soldiers firing into such demonstrations. Paul Bremer, head of the occupation administration trying to impose US rule in Iraq, told a news conference it was now illegal for Iraqis to incite violence. He said the move was not a violation of the freedom of the Iraqi people!

In Ireland it is hard to miss the parallels with the opening years of 'the troubles'. In the space of a few months the US has telescoped numerous bloody Sundays, internment and Section 31 together.

The US troops carrying out these raids continue to pass through Shannon airport as they are rotated into and out of Iraq. This Saturday 21st of June three protests will take place against the continued military use of that airport. Raise your voice against the US occupation of Iraq and the continuing role of the Irish government in making that occupation possible.

Andrew

by Andrew Thu Oct 16, 2003 13:11

Of course the problem with this 'opportunism' idea is that we were building the bin charge campaign three years back when it wasn't the sexy issue it is today. Check out http://struggle.ws/wsm/bins.html for confirmation of this. And before that we were involved in the fight against the water tax, also over a period of years.

Go far enough back and we were involved in opposing the 1991 Gulf War. That war also never ended, it just changed its form between '91 and '02. Is our failure to picket all the Fianna Fail Ard Fheis from '91 to '02 another example of our 'opportunism'? If you think the war is the only issue you could certainly argue this - and its not an argument entirely without merit. The only problem is that nobody else picketed all these Ard Fheis on that basis either. And if everyone's an 'opportunist' then the term tends to lose meaning.

It's also true that we were involved in protests at Shannon long before they became a (slightly) popular issue. Our news reports page http://struggle.ws/wsm/news.html starts carrying reports written by WSM members at these protests from Dec 15 2001. 70 people attended this protest. We were there again August 17 2002, again there were around 70 at this protest.

In fact the first demonstration that looked like it might by of any size was October 11th 2002,just over a year ago. Some 300 people took part and ourselves and a few others led the tearing down of the fence and the mass trespress.

So if the accusation of 'opportunism' has any real value it is not with the start of these protests. We helped build for them when they were not popular over a period of a year or so. So did other people but no one would pretend that in this time the issue was either popular or easy. Our involvement has dropped way off in a period when some are working hard to keep something going. We are sorry this is the case but I think the reasons are quite obvious, more on this below.

I also think we are honest with those who we struggle with where it matters. In Dublin at an activists anti-war meeting after the start of the occupation we explained why we thought the opportunities ahead were limited in the short term for the anti-war movement. We didn't post a 'why we won't be in Killarney' in advance of the protest because this could have had the effect of discouraging others from going and be (rightly) seen by the organisers as undermining them.

I agree that these criticisms are not necessarly trolling - thats why both myself and James have bothered to respond to them. The fact that the recent authors don't put their names to these posts makes them a lot less real however as I don't know if they are actually people involved in anti-war stuff or simply people with a political axe to grind. But the points could be genuine so I'm dealing with them as if they are. I'd still like to know who is making them though.

Finally there is a more fundamental point here, one that we were also discussing at the bad books meeting last night. As anarchists we do not simply want to end the occupation of Iraq or defeat the bin tax. We want to help create a world where there is no division into rich and power, or boss and worker.

We are willing to fight on any issue that improves the situation today. The war and the bin tax are just two among hundreds. On other threads people have suggested that health care is a better priority or education. Looking at our news wire you will find many other issues, abortion rights, anti-racism, the European Union or RTS to name four off the top of my head. And in fighting on these issues we will also raise the longer term anarchist project and the relevany of anarchism and anarchist methods of organisation to these struggles.

Now it is legtimate to choose 'the most important issue' and dedicate the rest of your life to fighting on that first and foremost. Many people do this and play a vital role as a result.

Or you can ask, as we do, where in this period in time will our involvement make the greatest difference. Where will the hours and money put in add most to building a stronger struggle, one more likely to win. Yes asking this question is a form of 'opportunism' but it looking for opportunities to build the overall level of class struggle against the current system to the greatest extent possible. It is not 'opportunism' in the sense of looking for the best way to build our own organisation. Something we are laughably bad at because at key moments we put our energy into getting things done rather then paper selling or placard making.

Indeed building a struggle in a real way very often means making the unpopular argument for what is needed to be done rather then trailing after whatever most people seem to already agree with. In almost everything we have been involved in we were there at the start when the issue was not popular and few wanted to struggle on it. But we were there in part because we recognised there was a potential to change this, if people were willing to put in the base work.

We are not simply 'anti war activists', we are anarchists. We are struggling for a new world and that struggle involves many, many issues and taking advantage of many, many opportunities to take small steps forward.

At the end of the day this was an IAWM protest and we are not members of the IAWM. We recognise that the questions posed are relevant to the wider anti-war movement so myself and James have attempted to explain how we see this. Incidentally its probably worth pointing out that I don't agree with everything he has written and the reverse is also probably the case.

But what makes us different is that we have tried to do this. Others have not, including the political parties that are in the IAWM and would claim to lead it. It's up to individuals to decide how honest or meaningful these explanations are and on that basis to decide how to relate to us in the future.

by Constantin Zabatowski Thu Oct 16, 2003 13:59

I agree with Andrew - everybody should use their own name on Indymedia.

By the way, who IS Joe Black?

by Andrew Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:25

I don't think people sRight now hould have to use their own name all the time. There are many reasons why people might want to be anonymous that are quite legtimate. There are also reasons why people might want to be semi-anonymous, that is use an ID which many activists will be aware of the 'real identity' behind but which makes things a little difficult for more hostile forces (eg journalists, cops, employers etc).

Right now for instance the councils are seeking injunctions against people they believe are involved in the bintax blockades. Most activists here will know or be able to make a good guess as to who Joe Black is. But an injunction against him is only of value if the council could prove a link to another named individual.

Sometimes after all they are out to get us.

To further illustrate Sylvia Pankhurst is a widely recognised identity that the same person has used for years. If Sylvia wants to make specific criticisms far enough, I know what they actually do so I'd take such criticisms more seriously then a truly anonymous one.

by Sean Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:29

Andrew: "Or you can ask, as we do, where in this period in time will our involvement make the greatest difference. Where will the hours and money put in add most to building a stronger struggle, one more likely to win. Yes asking this question is a form of 'opportunism' but it looking for opportunities to build the overall level of class struggle against the current system to the greatest extent possible."

I would agree with Andrew here, in the sense that I see nothing malevolent to the WSM's opportunism. But, nonetheless, for those who take a longer term view of their involvement in the peace movement, this IS opportunism. It's a cynical attitude. I'm sure Andrew knows this (and I'm not trying to lecture here), but people are being killed in Iraq on a daily basis and Shannon is being used to help that along. Whether our actions at Shannon help to 'disillusion' people with 'class rule' or with the Irish government is less important to me than helping to stop Ireland's involvement in that slaughter. I'm sure Andrew cares about ending the slaughter as well, but it is obvious that he sees it as less a priority than undermining the government. That's a fundamental difference, and that's why it's fair to describe the WSM attitude to the peace movement as 'opportunism'.

Nobody doubts the previous involvement of the WSM, though arguably it was no more (and perhaps less) than the energy and resources put in by the SWP, SP, Workers Party, etc. etc. The claim that the WSM 'led' the mass trespass on October 12th is a bit much because the dogs in the street know that it was led by members of the Cork Peace Alliance (and, yes, a Cork WSMer did play a leading role: fair dues to the man, and to the other WSMers that involved themselves, but it wasn't 'led' by the WSM).

With regard to tactics at Shannon, the WSM repeatedly argued for direct action and took a hard line against those who disagreed with them (like the SP and SWP). People like myself assumed this meant that the WSM were unlike the Trot groups and were in for the long haul. Not true it seems and now we have blithe references from one member (James) to others keeping the movement 'ticking over' while he's off looking for today's coalface. My friends, Shannon airport continues to refuel US warplanes, and the peace movement cannot just 'tick over'.

by Andrew Thu Oct 16, 2003 15:01

"ourselves and a few OTHERS led the tearing down of the fence" (emphasis added).

For what its worth my memory is that around 12-20 people initated this and that included 6 WSM members. Yep most of the others were from Cork and it makes sense that they were CPA heads but remember I'm from Dublin so I only vaguely know what groups specific Cork people are involved in.

We pushed direct action on the war hard when we thought mass direct action was a possibility. Right now we don't (on the war) Small actions continue to be carried out and more power to the people doing this. But that was never 'our scene' something that we also made clear at the time.

On the other hand we've spent the last week facing many of the same cops we faced on March 1st at Shannon on another form of mass direct action. This time we find that amongst the political organisations most likely to be there with us are the same ones that were most against that tactic at Shannon. And on the other hand it appears that some of those we were with at Shannon are having a go us now for prioritising the bin tax. So it goes...

Bottom line. I don't think we ever pretended to be something we weren't. We are not simply 'anti-war' we are also anarchists and our paper throughout the height of the war period carried report after report on the bin tax campaign. For example
http://struggle.ws/wsm/ws/2002/72/bintax.html
http://struggle.ws/wsm/ws/2002/71/drogheda.html
http://struggle.ws/wsm/ws/2002/71/bintax.html
http://struggle.ws/ws/2002/ws70/bintax.html
http://struggle.ws/wsm/ws/2003/ws75/bintax.html
http://struggle.ws/wsm/ws/2003/ws74/bintax.html

It should have been obvious we took organising against the bin tax very seriously then you weren't paying attention.

The articles on the war often put our anti-war work in an anarchist perspective, eg in 'Stopping the war' WS73 ends with "Of course the tactics used also have more general implications for the future. We want to see people take power into their own hands rather then relying on a few good men in the Dáil. A victory on refuelling as a result of a Dáil vote would be a step forward but would have a limited long term impact. A victory on the basis of thousands of people stopping the use of Shannon themselves would transform politics in Ireland."

As it happens Cork WSM are doing an Ideas and Action gathering in Cork this weekend that includes a session on 'Direct action and the war' with a Catholic Workers speaker (and they are certainly still doing stuff). If your in Cork Sean you might like to go along and raise these issues there, a couple of our Dublin members including James will also be there. More details at http://struggle.ws/wsm/cork.html

by James - Dublin WSM (personal capacity) Thu Oct 16, 2003 16:39

WSM haven’t dropped out of anti-war activity. Sure it isn’t eating most of our time as it did in the spring, but we are still working away on it at a lower level. Members participated in both the recent Dublin march and picket of Top Oil. There are two articles on anti-war activity in our current magazine. Probably some of us will make our way to Shannon in December. (Has a definite date been set?)

Do you really think that people have to go every single event in order to be involved in a campaign? This would seem to be your position.

Andrew outlined WSM involvement well before the issue became newsworthy. This will continue afterwards as well.

Not going to every event doesn’t mean we have abandoned an issue altogether. We don’t get to every single picket or demo on the bin tax either. We’d never sleep if that were the case. Another example of us not doing everything we’d like to is this saturday we were asked to do a talk on democratic structures for student union class reps. Unfortunately nobody had the time to do it. It doesn’t mean we’ve abandoned our commitment to direct democracy or informing people about it. A third example: we are an issue behind in our paper for the year: it doesn’t mean we’ve abandoned our contribution to increasing public awareness of anarchist ideas. So anti-war stuff isn’t the only thing where we can’t do all that we’d like.


The fact remains that we, like everybody, make choices as to what activity we think will inch us closer to a fair society, which includes not slaughtering Iraqis. There’s plenty of room for disagreement between people on what issues take priority, but in some ways this is no harm as this diversity ensures diverse issues get covered. One of the factors that influence the decision is our level of available time and energy. Another is the intrinsic value of the events. Will the event be a positive step forward and empower or people or vice versa etc etc?


I think it is fair enough to juggle a number of different issues, sometimes varying the level of effort you put into any one of them. It’s part of life that events constantly throw up new issues to deal with. Steadfastly ignoring them in order to focus on one issue doesn’t seem sensible. At the moment, for example, there is little happening in the pro-choice activity. It is hard to know what to do. But if a doctor was prosecuted for performing an abortion then it may spark a renewal of the pro-choice movement. Then it may be worth upping involvement because there is a realistic chance of achieving something.

I’m sorry if the phrase ‘ticking over’ came over as a bit blithe. It is. What I meant was, success in anti-war activity isn’t imminent IMHO. But things can change and if there is the bones of an anti-war movement when public interest returns so much the better. We will contribute to anti-war activity in the mean-time.

This attitude is a bit negative it is true in that it doesn’t see success in the short term, but that’s an honest opinion. Perhaps the top-oil campaign will bring better news. It doesn’t mean throwing in the towel, but I don’t favour giving so much attention to it that it detracts substantially from other areas where we (everybody not just wsm) can have success. Perhaps others with more zeal and energy can do more.


For the record our priority in anti-war activity was to stop the use of Shannon for refuelling. In order to do this you need to defeat government, (Fintan earlier pointed the necessity of confronting them as well). It isn’t simply a case of defeating the government for the malicious pleasure we’d get out of it, but rather because it directly effects the achievement of our goal.
In addition to this priority we also, as anarchists, have anarchist goals which Andrew outlined. I think this is pretty consistent, cause if we want to put a stop to wars in the long term, I think we need a free and just society.
Undermining the authority of the state and capital is always healthy. If popular revolt can defeat the bin tax, then it is a confidence booster for the anti-war campaign. It shows it can be done. I suppose we’d see war as a manifestation of a bigger problem, how society is structured, and to struggle for a new society is also to struggle against war.

by Mr Somebody Fri Oct 17, 2003 14:54

Congrats Andrew and James – the audience is now officially asleep. I declare this thread at an end.

by Andrew Fri Oct 17, 2003 15:38

The questions that caused these long replies were well worth discussing. I'd still be interested to hear what the left groups who are actually members of the IAWM might have to say but I'll not hold my breath.

In defence of the length of reply I can only agree with Chomsky that some things are impossable to explain in a soundbite. It's an old trick of the establishment media to ask someone a 'common sense' question and then refuse to allow them the time to explain why this isn't common sense (because such explanations would be 'boring'). Thankfully this tactic does not work on indymedia.

Anyway if you were bored why on earth didn't you just stop reading. Or has some evil leftie tied you into a chair in front of a computer with matchsticks holding open your eyes. If so my sympathy is with you and well done for typing the above with your nose.

by Mr Somebody Fri Oct 17, 2003 16:56

Will I tell you what I find most tiresome about your comments, Andrew? Will I? Well, I've read through them (at great personal cost) and your tone of self-righteousness is nauseating. "We are struggling for a new world and that struggle involves many, many issues and taking advantage of many, many opportunities to take small steps forward." And anyone who begs to differ with your current stance on anti-war activity, of course, is a hopeless single-issue headless chicken. Right? Or a prisoner of an evil lefty?

Actually, I AM an evil lefty. And I wouldn't half mind a new world (even a decent second-hand one will do). And – having spotted some real evil (Project for a New American Century, etc.), I reckon it's in everyone's interests to resist it before it gobbles us up.

So, please, get down off your high horse and stop addressing crtitics as though they – we – are confused children.

by Andrew Fri Oct 17, 2003 17:15

"And anyone who begs to differ with your current stance on anti-war activity, of course, is a hopeless single-issue headless chicken. Right? "

Nope wrong.

Not only have I not said that I have repeatadly said that I respect those who ARE still putting massive effort into anti-war work and that such work is useful. I don't believe in the Leninist 'everyone who refuses to follow my model is a counter-revolutionary' crap.

by bemused. Fri Oct 17, 2003 17:16

have you tried talking to trusted loved ones?

by Andrew Fri Oct 17, 2003 17:20

'evil leftie' was (I thought) obviously part of a joke. I didn't really believe someone had tied him into a chair and propped his eyes open with matchsticks either in case your wondering.

Sometimes the left comes across as a bit grim and humorless don't ya think?

by bemused Fri Oct 17, 2003 17:22

i want to do an o as if thing for the anarkomedia on that very question. grim reapers getting the wrong crops.