The Bin Tax and the Local Elections

by Gralton Wed Jun 30, 2004 18:31

What is your point Nestor Fan?????????

by G.Plant Wed Jun 30, 2004 18:29

Actually some of this was already in the media Miramax agent. For a start try the Phoenix magazine in the run-up to the election. I do know she was a member of the Irish National Congress which had people in it from SF, FF and other parties. The stuff in the media indicated that FF members in Dublin West asked her to help them in pressurising the party regarding the issue of Articles Two and Three. So not so far fetched after all! Or didn't you realise Miramax Agent that the real world out there is often stranger than the one in your bedroom??

by Nestor fan Wed Jun 30, 2004 18:25

'Hiding behind Dolours Price's apron strings is just pathetic Nestor fan!'

Go tell that to Mary Lou.

by Miramax Agent Wed Jun 30, 2004 18:21

"Apparently Mary Lou was in FF for about a week or two in order to pressurise them about some issue or other and then promptly left it at the earliest opportunity."

Fuck, if the SP wrote something like this, you'd laugh. Keep it for the newbies.

by Gralton Wed Jun 30, 2004 18:18

Hiding behind Dolours Price's apron strings is just pathetic Nestor fan! Like others I would like to know what your recipe for revolution in Ireland is. By the way is the woman you quote not closely associated with the 32-County Sovereignty Movement who support the so-called Real IRA? Does that mean blind militarism is your recipe Nestor fan? Sadly it seems your just another SF basher with no political strategy at all. Join the queue of SF bashers- all great Leftists I'm sure- the British security services, loyalist paramilitaries, Ian Paisely, Michael McDowell the Colombian government, CIA etc, etc.

by Tom Barry Wed Jun 30, 2004 18:01

Isn't great for you Nestor fan. You will never have to get your hands dirty actual doing anything to implement change. You will never have to meet odious world leaders and tell them they are wrong or take part in assemblies that have very limited power so as to represent thousansds of nationalists who vote for you. SF opposes neo-liberalism and actually tries to achieve what they belive in. The Brit govt held the purse strings when Stormont was up and running. This is nothing to a party who has been through 30 years of having its members and representatives assassinated, who have faced jails and interrogation centres, bullets- live and plastic and house raids, not to mention demonisation by the media and the ruling class here and abroad. Meanwhile as you have been asked by others earlier- What do you do???

by Nestor fan Wed Jun 30, 2004 17:58

Now I'd rather rely on somebody who might know a thing or two about revolution:
Flying the Flag

Dolours Price • 24 June 2004
A few comments around the recent Elections.

I am not a member of Sinn Fein and never have been but I have been watching this party closely over the last number of years. I watched the transformation of their candidate for Europe, Mary Lou McDonald, from card carrying Fianna Fail member to elected Sinn Fein Representative in a matter of, what, two or three years?

The Sinn Fein motto for all elections is "An Ireland of Equals".

Over the past twenty years I have been aware of the spade-work being done by
dedicated Sinn Fein members at times when that party was not flavour of the month, or any other month. I wonder why these experienced and articulate party members did not "make the grade" when it came to nomination time? Are nominations still the domain of the Cumann or is selection handed down by the "Leadership"? We have been told it is a "leadership led movement" (so was Stalin's Russia!).

Is it perhaps that the accents of the longterm member are more Donamede than Dun Laoirghe, that as politicised working-class people they did not, despite their obvious ability, have an opportunity to get a third level education?

Mary Lou has a fine political career ahead of her be that with Sinn Fein or Fianna Fail. I feel she will jump ship whenever it suits Mary Lou. What of the people who worked so tirelessly to put her on the career ladder; they will still be shinning up lampposts, manning the clinics, working for the party. I do not support Sinn Fein, but I give credit where it is due. It seems a pity that the "leadership" is more opportunistic than it is loyal to its members.

Can they call out for "An Ireland of Equals" from a Party that seems not to be all that "Equal"?

Briefly but importantly, Gerry Adams dismissed the disgraceful degradation of the National Flag at count centres throughout the State and up in the North as, "a few people getting carried away." People do not normally store a tri-colour in their inside pocket to be whipped out like a nose-rag to be waved in the faces of other Irishmen, be they political opponents or tribal opponents. The picture of the victorious Mary Lou Mc Donald clutching a tri-colour nailed to a bit of stick was a shame on her and on Sinn Fein.

Gerry Adams grew up in a traditional Republican home like my own. He would have learnt there the respect due to The Flag. For too long Sinn Fein have abused the National Flag and by implication claim it as theirs and theirs alone. Is that perhaps why they paraded down O'Connell street on Easter Sunday to the tune of "Take it down from the Mast Irish Traitors"? The words go on, "it can never belong to Free-Staters for you brought on it nothing but shame...." Ironic to me for several reasons, insulting to others for the obvious reason. The National Flag also flies prominently on the Falls Road in Belfast adorned with Celtic emblems, a defacement again, flags put there by Ogra Sinn Fein, a group of youths slightly reminicent of another group of boyscouts from the 1940s Germany. Take those down from the mast and save some of your dignity, Sinn Fein.

(1) Although they sound more like the sticks in the early eighties with their you wouldn't know anything about a revolution, and we are infiltrating this and that and let's face it the academics (Gilmore, McCartan and Rabitte) didn't turn out to be revolutionaries, just full time poltical opportunists. And there won't be much difference with Mary Lou.

by George Gilmore Wed Jun 30, 2004 17:50

And what do you do Nestor fan? You wouldn't know a revolution if it came up and bit you in the arse!

by Yves Wed Jun 30, 2004 17:47

Ever heard of infiltration? No, I suppose you would be too naieve going by your most recent meanderings on this page. Or maybe you believe that its the other way around and SF are being infiltrated by comitted FF moles! Yeh right! get a grip Nestor fan.

by Nestor fan Wed Jun 30, 2004 17:45

Do what exactly?
Implement the right-wing neo-liberal as witnessed by Baibre and Martin in Stormont? Go do introductions to the leaders at the WEF conference?
Go do the hello's to George Bush at Hillsborough?
Do the Ireland of Equals roadshow - you don't even have a party of equals. (Ask Martin Cunningham)
As the song goes 'it's not what you do it's the way that you do it'!

by Vlad Wed Jun 30, 2004 17:43

Apparently Mary Lou was in FF for about a week or two in order to pressurise them about some issue or other and then promptly left it at the earliest opportunity. What actual relevance has it got? Its a dubious point whether she was ever really in FF as they don't hand out membership cards and people walk in and out of FF meetings in hotels around this country all the time. Some consider that those who attend one meeting are members. Anyway are you objecting to people dumping conservative parties and coming over to the Left or what? Or are you just a begrudger?

by Makhno Wed Jun 30, 2004 17:24

For fucks sake who the hell do you think you are Nestor Fan? Are you setting urself up as the oracle of revolutionary wisdom or something? It sounds like it when you say "We will have to wait and see... "I'm not too optimistic" Do you really think SF or anyone else is waiting with bated breath as regards your approval of their revolutionary intent? wake up and smell the coffee! Some people talk while other people do! What is your litmus test of revolutinary intent? actually before you answer don't bother!!! Nobody's queing up for your approval whoever you are. By the way Nestor Makhno was a doer not a talker!!!

by Updater Wed Jun 30, 2004 17:06

Barbour ran for the SP at the last local elections, so they already accept his revolutionary credentials.

by .. Wed Jun 30, 2004 16:44

Its not that long ago that Jim Barbour of the SP was a reformist. How long will it be before you accept his revolutionary credentials?

by Nestor fan Wed Jun 30, 2004 16:30

It's not really that long.

by .. Wed Jun 30, 2004 15:33

Mary Lou left FF a long time ago. It makes just as much sense to say that the SP shanghaied Joe Higgins from the Roman Catholic Church.

by Nestor fan Wed Jun 30, 2004 15:02

FF used to come out and says stuff like this: "They are a Left party and offer a more credible alternative to the conservative parties than the rag-tag of Left independents and members of Lefts groups you refer too."

Personally I think that we will have to wait and see about SF. At the moment they are going through all the leftish posturing that FF went through in the 20's and 30's. I think they will drop their left wing as they got closer to power and will end up as FF II.
I hope to be proved wrong. Their involvement in the assembly in the north east of the country and their shanghaiing of Mary Lou from FF doesn't make me to optimistic.

by Vox Pop Wed Jun 30, 2004 14:56

Dermot Lacey faced the people. The people weighed him in the balance. The people re-elected him. You lot dont like democracy.

by Makhno Wed Jun 30, 2004 14:54

Please explain urself. "Fianna fail used to come out with this sort of stuff" What do you mean? I have no time for Fianna Fail and I am not defending Oserver whoever he or she is. But what is your point? I am hardly Nestor Makhno unless I am about 150 years-old. I suppose you think you are some sort of true inheritor of Nestor Makhno's memory. Get real.

by Archive fan Wed Jun 30, 2004 14:37

Use the archives. There's a whole section on the bin tax.

by jacob Wed Jun 30, 2004 14:35

"The same Dermot 'bin tax increase' Lacy? Are you saying you're proud to be associated with this swine?"

A lot of negative energy out there. Can anyone please list a concise set of reasons for opposing the bin tax?

And from a universal point of few, not party political prejudices.

by Vlad Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:42

Bren. Was intrigued by your post re someone hanging around with drug dealers, cosying up to Westies etc. Who? and Tell us more!!! This is what we need on this site more political dirt/ truth behind the scenes stuff.

by Nestor fan Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:41

"Observer may be reactionary and wrong on election predictions but you display political sectarinism. SF are of the Left. They are a Left party and offer a more credible alternative to the conservative parties than the rag-tag of Left independents and members of Lefts groups you refer too."

Fianna Fail used to come out with this sort of stuff. You might call yourself Makhno but you certainly aren't no Nestor.

by Makhno Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:29

Observer may be reactionary and wrong on election predictions but you display political sectarinism. SF are of the Left. They are a Left party and offer a more credible alternative to the conservative parties than the rag-tag of Left independents andmembers of Lefts groups you refer too. If they are what you call the Left in Ireland then God help us! Wake up to tyhe reality that theseare the reasons working class people give far more votes to SF.

by Mini Tallyman Tue Jun 29, 2004 17:57

Observer was very quick to make precise predictions before the election regarding the predicted failure of various left candidates but not a whimper from him since because he was proved completely wrong. In my case, I predicted that Jaon Collins (Ind, Crumlin) and Ciaran Perry (WCA, Cabra) could win seats and that Joe Mooney (WCA, North Inner City) and John O Neill (ISN, Finglas) would get 500-1000 votes each. Observer mocked my prediction declaring that none would come near winning a seat and that Mooney, Perry and O Neill would get 1,200 between them.

Collins won the seat easily, Perry just missed winning a seat and both Mooney and O Neill polled creditably (c.700 and c.800 respectively). The reality is that many SFers thought that the huge swing to SF would obliterate the far left but this did not happen. The left did well despite the SF gains, especially where the ground work had been done in advance.

Anything to say Observer?

by Fingallian Tue Jun 29, 2004 15:40

What? SF might rob a seat and then give it back?

by curious Tue Jun 29, 2004 15:19

SF vote Tallaght Central was 3145

in Tallaght South - 3261

Maybe Murphy will get you remedial classes

Overall SF vote in the Dublin SW constituency up a couple of hundred from the 2002 general so SP are no threat.

In Dublin West, on the other hand!!

by Shinner Tue Jun 29, 2004 15:02

Numerically it more than doubled; it went up by almost 1800 in Tallaght South and 1600 in Tallaght central. Look at the figures. People elected Murphy because he lied and told them he would bring about change that he has no chance of achieving. The people wont forget that. All of his lies will be exposed. I think Sinn Fein should run a regular up date. What Mick Murphy said he would do, what Mick murphy has done.

by Maverick Tue Jun 29, 2004 13:47

I'm just going to ignore your personal insults. Being a good councillor is not about 'winning support' from FFers and FGers on the council but organisning people outside the council chamber in opposition to neo liberal policies being implemented by the council and the government. This is what SF forget and why they are prepared to do all sorts of sell-out careerist deals with FF, FG , Labour etc on councils up and down the country.

By the way, SF's vote did not double in Tallaght in look at the figures!

Tallaght Central
SF vote 1999 14.34%
SF vote 2004 20.22%

Tallaght South
SF vote 1999 17.69%
SF vote 2004 21.41%

by shinner. Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:01

Mick Murphy will get no support from the other parties on the council and he will not get anything done. This is not because of his party policies; simply put he is a truly obnoxious person. He managed to harness a protest vote in the area. Next time round he will be there five years and people will want to know what he has done. I have no doubt that the other parties will take him on. He ran the most negative campaign ever seen in a Local election in Tallaght, you only get to do that the once, next time round the record of other councilors wont matter, his record will. One term for sure!

P.S. The Sinn Fein vote more than doubled in both Tallaght wards, the one sure thing next time round is that they will be taking the four seats.

by Maverick Mon Jun 28, 2004 20:43

I would not be very surprised if our friend 'concerned' is the same person as 'observer'. People may remember 'observer' making the prediction that the SP would be 'lucky to retain their seat in Mulhuddart', that 'Mick Murphy would be doing well to poll 600 votes' and that 'the SP in Dundrum will at best get 200 votes, and then most of them will come from the Mental Home'.

'concerned' you are simply some sort of jealous SFer. All your predictions about Mick Murphy's performance as a councillor will I am sure be as accurate as your predictions about the election results.

by Chris Bond Sun Jun 27, 2004 17:40

Id be one of those "hard left" labour supporters. I think we would of done a lot better in dublin if we had called for complete abolition of Waste Charges.The labour party lost a lot of their hard left support in tallaght central to SP candidate Mick Murphy who was elcected on the anti bin tax ticket.its no good calling for an increase in waivers cos does not appeal to middle or high income voters who are anti bin tax.If they put forward anti waste charge policies in 2007 they could make significant gains.

by JD - SP (PC) Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:29

To Concerned,

As a member of the SP i hope we face many more disasters like this:)

I would not like to over state the result but it was a good outcome for us, we now have people elected in two more council areas, Joe had an excellent vote in Dublin and we can use this base as a platform to raise working class issues with a bigger audience.
Not at all bad for a small working class party.

ps. well done to all other left candidates, SP and others, who although not elected got very good votes.

by Concerned Sat Jun 26, 2004 17:38

The Sp can not claim a victory in the local elections. The claims in their post election material is highly laughable.

Lets look at the facts, while the SP may have increased its vote, it ran 14 candidates and only got 4 elected, two of which were previous councillors with a high profile.

Mick Murphy's campaign in Tallaght defied all conventional logic, he is truely a one term councillor. For one he ran effectively on a single issue. 2) he will be on his own in the council, he can cannot carry out his promises or as is the case in local govt appear to be doing so, as oppossed to the strong left groups on the council such as Labour and Sinn Fein.

In murphys election material he made no reference to the fact that he doesnt live locally, nor can he even vote for himself! His manifesto was from the SP national template and promised the high stars, it made no reference to Tallaght - no effort was made to indicate this. To thise who read it it looked like this was what he proposed to do if elected to the council.

Murphy will become Tallaghts Scarlet Pimpernell, he wont be found anywhere - possibly not even on the council, as its a known fact that he will only attend the bare minimim meetings.

In Fingal the SP launched a major campaign and truely saw gains, but this didnt materialise as is mentioned on the back of their work, the Greens and Labour still pushed ahead of them.

The fact that Clare Daly and Ruth Coppinger were elected is no real surprise, in that they were established councillors with a good record of work, but the work of the SP in the area has failed to generate these results in the area, as such it has shown that public opinion is not 'floating toward the SP's ship'

by labour lover Fri Jun 25, 2004 19:55

A gain of 2.8% is excellent considering it was coming off a very good result in the city in 1999. The overall vote was about 22%, again I'd call that pretty good. Sinn Fein gaining probably halted labour in certain areas but also did damage to FF. In the end of the day locally and nationally its seats that matter and Labour gained well all around Dublin.

As pouinted out by another poster the reason people are pointing it out so much is the absolute confidence various far left people had in predicting labour losses and gains for SP etc. on this very site. Go back and look at the archives if you don't believe me. Maybe the lesson is a little bit more humility impresses the public.

by dick spring Fri Jun 25, 2004 19:02

Joe Costello and Christy Burke have been very supportive of the ABTC, speaking at lots of public meetings. Tony Gregory has also been an excellent supporter of the ABTC and his candidate, Mick Rafferty, also got elected.
Now, can you answer me - do you consider 2.8% a good result given the huge swing against FF? By going into coalition with greens/blueshirts is labour abandoning working class areas to SF?

by Real Stats Fri Jun 25, 2004 18:45

JC & Dermot Connolly were villified in the ABTC by the SP and others because they dared to oppose the "wisdom" of the majority. All sort of ABTC wiseacres were predicting losses for Labour here on Indymedia. In particular the Spuppies were also raving against SF and predicting that the electorate would make SF pay for not following the ABTC dictat.

Well something else happened. In the Nth Inner City, the secretary of the City ABTC got 700 votes, Labour got 2 seats, SF got 1. You know the rest.

by dick spring Fri Jun 25, 2004 18:37

The ABTC is not the SP and the SP is not the ABTC. The ABTC campaigns against the Bin Tax, it doesn't make electoral predictions. JCFan: Joan Collins is on the steering committee of the dublin campaign and still as active as ever so i don't know where you get the idea that she is somehow in conflict with the rest of the campaign, much as you would like to believe it.

by Spring Dick Fri Jun 25, 2004 18:00

The fact remains that the ABTC was predicting dire losses for Labour. This did not happen. The SP made no gains in their own beloved Fingal. The Greens and SF made the gains there.

In only one place did the LP lose out to the SP , in Tallaght Centrl. Even there the LP had more votes than the SP. They made the mistake of running 2 candidates.

by Dick Spring Fri Jun 25, 2004 17:55

All ya labour lovers are conveniently missing the most important point of this thread. Massive swing against the government and what percentage did your vote increase by? 2.8%!!!!! Your coalition partners, greens + blueshirts, actually decreased their vote in Dublin. SF will be the only ones to gain from your power hungry little pact. SF will be the de facto opposition in working class areas. By the way, how much did you spend per candidate in Dublin? Big spending – little gains.

by Fingal Flyer Fri Jun 25, 2004 17:55

Fingal's done and dusted. Lovely coalition for the show the blueshirts the red carpet brigade.
Doing deals to help that right wing reactionary Vardakar. How low can you go?

by Real stats Fri Jun 25, 2004 17:33

The Greens gained 2 seats in the SP "stronghold" of Fingal. The SP didnt gain any seats there. Even in Swords Labour have 2 seats and the SP only have one. In Joe Higgins homeland of Mulhuddart, his wife won a seat for the SP, they couldnt make a gain there either. It was SF who gained a seat in Mulhuddart.

by uh deux? Fri Jun 25, 2004 17:32

Or Oisin 'my daddy Lochlann really likes the plebs - but he couldn't eat a whole one' Quinn?

by uh? Fri Jun 25, 2004 17:25

"Dermot Lacey"!?!

The same Dermot 'bin tax increase' Lacy? Are you saying you're proud to be associated with this swine?

by JCFAN Fri Jun 25, 2004 16:49

To Joan Collins who won a seat in spite of the vilification heaped on her by the SP and the majority of the ABTC. She dared to differ with them in public. The people responded by electing her.

by labour lover Fri Jun 25, 2004 16:34

Well done to Ann Carter who won a seat, Paddy Bourke who won a seat, Andrew Montague who won a seat, Mary Murphy who won a seat, Emer Costelloe and Aodhan O’Riordan who won seats, Kevin Humphries who won a seat, Michael Connaughton who won a seat, Eric Byrne who won a seat, Dermot Lacey who won a seat, Oisin Quinn who won a seat, Mary Freehill who won a seat, Brendan Carr who won a seat, John Gallagher who won a seat.

There were others who “polled well” but space prohibits you’ll understand

by Shrek & Donkey - Ogre's Against the War Fri Jun 25, 2004 16:02

Outpolled by more than one candidate. Who topped the poll? Who showed Fianna Fail the Red Carpet rather than the red card?

by Reality Check Fri Jun 25, 2004 14:57

Labour still outpolled the SP in Tallaght Central. Labour had 2,200 ist prefs to Mahers 1,200 in Dundrum. The fact remains that you lot were predicting that Labour would be wiped out in Dublin. That hasnt happened.