Mordechai Vanunu Asks for an Irish Welcome

international | anti-war / imperialism | feature Saturday October 09, 2004 00:36 by Vanunu2Ireland - Vanunu to Ireland Campaign

Indymedia.ie Interviews Mordechai Vanunu

Read statements of support for Vanunu allowing to make a new home in Ireland by Mairead Corrigan Maguire, Daniel Ellsberg, Katharine Gun, Garret FitzGerald and more.... The Irish Asylum for Vanunu Project Website is at freewebs.com/Vanunu2Ireland

In 1986 Mordechai Vanunu offered information about Israel's secret Dimona nuclear 'research center' programme to The Sunday Times, later that year he was drugged and kidnapped in Italy by Israeli agents, was tried and convicted in Israel for treason and spent eighteen years in Ashkelon prison, twelve of which were in solitary confinement in a two-by-three metre cell.

His restrictions include not speaking to international journalists. Mordechai Vanunu has violated court orders by speaking to Indymedia.ie...

"I would like to get out of Israel and start a new life. I hope the Irish government will help me to receive asylum and much more importantly to act, as a government, [to convince the Israelis] to let me go. That is what I need now. We need someone to ask the Israeli government to let me go. If I were to come to Ireland, I would like to write my book. I have an obligation to write my book for people who want to know my story. I would like to speak to people about anti-nuclear weapons, to speak about peace, and, if I can, to enter university to learn and teach."

Indymedia.ie: Could you briefly describe what happened with you and the Dimona Nuclear Plant 18+ years ago that resulted in your imprisonment, for those who are not familiar?

Mordechai Vanunu: In September of 1986 I met a journalist, Peter Hounam, from The Sunday Times, and I gave him all the information I knew about Dimona Nuclear Reactor where I was working. I told him I was working in the production of Plutonium, Lithium-6 and Tritium Nuclear Materials that are used for producing and building Atomic Bombs, Hydrogen Bombs and Neutron Bombs. My job was to produce these materials. I used to produce each year about 30 to 40 grams of Plutonium, which is enough for about 10 Atomic Bombs each year. So if you consider that the Dimona Reactor was working since from 1964 to 1986, they produced about 200 Atomic Bombs.

	"I was working in the production [.... for] building Atomic Bombs, Hydrogen Bombs and Neutron Bombs. My job was to produce these materials. I used to produce each year about 30 to 40 grams of Plutonium, which is enough for about 10 Atomic Bombs each year."
Vanunu's photos from the Dimona Nuclear Facility released to The Sunday Times in 1986

Indymedia.ie: What led you to the decision to release this information to the public?

Vanunu: It was published by The Sunday Times, and the main reason I went to the public is because the Israeli Government was not reporting to anyone what was going on in secret. All that was known was that maybe Israel had two to five Atomic Bombs - but I knew that they were producing a lot. So I decided that the world should know that they Israel had a lot of Atomic bombs, beyond any imagination. And that it is a danger that they could use them in the next war against Syria or any other state.

By publishing [this information] and informing the world, I wanted to prevent Israel from using nuclear bombs and causing nuclear war in the Middle East. And also,I hoped that because of the publicity Israel would have to make peace with the Palestinians and give back the occupied land. That was my main target and concern, to help to bring peace to the Middle East, and to prevent war.

Indymedia.ie: What led you to develop your own anti-nuclear stance?

Vanunu: I think every human being who followed the story of nuclear weapons - consider Hiroshima, Nagasaki - can see the result of the use of Atomic Bombs like as in the movie 'The Day After'. And do not forget that in the Cold War, when the United States and Russia were in a nuclear race, each one had thousands of nuclear weapons and were very close to an explosive situation - that would cause the deaths of millions and the destruction of cities of the world or in the Middle East. So, my main concern was to save and prevent a genocide and holocaust by Israel's nuclear weapons. I was raised to respect the Jewish holocaust - and I found out that the Jewish people and Israeli government could cause a holocaust on the Arab people by nuclear weapons - that was my target and main concern.

Indymedia.ie: Obviously, the Israeli government would say they need them for 'security' - but do nuclear weapons create security for Israel, ultimately?

Vanunu: I do not think that nuclear weapons are defensive weapons and do not save any life. Nuclear weapons can only cause genocide and holocaust, nuclear weapons cannot save an Israeli State. The only way to save an Israeli State is by a real peace. The use of nuclear weapons can only cause a nuclear war or a chemical weapons war that will kill millions of people. So I disagree [with the Israeli nuclear policy] that these weapons are for defense. In my view, nuclear power gives too much power to the Israeli government so they can avoid making peace.

Indymedia.ie: Your convictions have led you to eighteen years of imprisonment and many years in isolation in jail. Can you describe your life in prison?

Vanunu: I was eleven and a half years in total isolation in one small room - two by three meters. They did not use any physical torture, but they used a lot of psychological torture to make me angry and agressive - if I were agressive, they could have used physical power against me. But I was not agressive so I did not give them the chance to use physical torture.

But there was a lot of psychological torture, every day and every night they could disturb my sleep, they came to my cell every half-hour, they controlled everything from food to clothes, even electricity and water - all was under Israeli spy control. The Shikma prison [in Ashkelon] was controlled and guided by Shin-beth/Mossad - they have their office inside the prison and use that power to recruit the guards and train them to use modern psychological systems to break down [the prisoners] - but I survived, and fought back by staying very firm and strong.

"My main concern was to save and prevent a genocide and holocaust by Israel's nuclear weapons. I was raised to respect the Jewish holocaust - and I found out that the Jewish people and Israeli government could cause a holocaust on the Arab people by nuclear weapons"
Vanunu's photos from the Dimona Nuclear Facility released to The Sunday Times in 1986

Indymedia.ie: You have had an interesting global spiritual journey., You started your life as a Jew in Morocco, then later in Nepal and developed an interest in Buddhism, and then in Australia you converted to Christianity. I am curious, did your spirituality help you through your isolation in prison?

Vanunu: Yes, I was raised as a Jew in a Jewish family (in Morocco) and I became a Christian in Sydney, Australia in 1986. That helped me very much when I was in prison because when I was isolated in a cell I used to be under heavy psychological brainwashing - I needed my own faith, my own way, my individual way, my independent way. So, the best way for me to answer all the Israeli brainwashing was through my Christianity - no matter what they did they could not change me or break me down, because I declared my Christianity, very firm and clear, in my own way. I said to them 'You are in the wrong way and I am in the right way' and I am following Jesus Christ, non-violence and peace. My Christianity was like a shell that helped me to stand against all their brainwashing and [psychological] warfare. This was a big obstacle for them in their effort to break me.

Indymedia.ie: Did your Christianity influence you to make the decision to release the information about the Dimona Nuclear Programme?

Vanunu: Yes, when I was in Australia [and converted to Christianity] this set me totally free from any obligation or connection to the Israeli government or to the Israeli Nation - I felt I was doing right for all of the human race, that I was not obligated (as before) only to the Israeli state. The human race is more important than loyalty to the Israeli government. Christianity helped me feel that I am one of all the human race, like Jesus brought God to all the world.

Indymedia.ie: I do not know the full conditions of your release from prison, but I read that you had recently visited the Wall that Israel is building. A lot has changed since you were imprisoned in 1986, what does that Wall symbolise to you?

Vanunu: When I came out of prison and saw this Wall, it was very disappointing and very disturbing. The Wall is a symbol of Israeli aggression and power and a sign that it does not really want peace. Israel is building this wall to be an obstacle to any movement between Jews and Palestinians and to disturb Palestinian life; but more importantly this wall is a symbol that Israel does not want real peace. You cannot have real peace with Palestinians if you build this wall.

So, I am very disapointed to see this wall and I want the world and the whole human race to raise their voice to demand the destruction of this wall. It means that there is not going to be any real peace in the future.

Indymedia.ie: How is it that Israel can think that Nuclear Weapons and this Wall can bring it peace?

Vanunu: I do not understand it. The Israelis believe they have the power to do anything they want. And with the Wall, they can prevent a real peace. The Wall is the true face of Israeli policy, that they do not want any real peace. They have a policy based on power instead of going into real negotiations to create real peace with the Arabs of the Middle East, and especially the Palestinians.

The Wall and Israel's nuclear weapons reminds me of Masada. The Jewish people lived on that mountain near the Dead Sea in 73AD and in the end they committed suicide there. This is also the policy of nuclear weapons. If they use nuclear weapons it will be a genocide for the Israelis.

Indymedia.ie: How do you see Israel's nuclear weapons assisting the oppression of the Palestinians?

Vanunu: It means that Israel trusts its own power and can force the Palestinians and the world, including Europe and the United States, to accept a Jewish Apartheid State. A Jewish State with Jewish religion and law: they call it democracy, but it is Jewish democracy for the Jews. This is the policy backed by nuclear weapons.

Instead of building a real secular democracy for all the people and a real democracy as in every European state, Israel decided to have a religious Apartheid state, a state governed by Jewish law for the Jews only, with no respect for Palestinian rights.

This is what the Israelis have in mind with nuclear weapons and this is a big mistake. Maybe now they will start to realise this, they will wake up and change this policy and build a real democracy - and in a real democracy they will not need any nuclear weapons.

"The Wall is a symbol of Israeli aggression and power and a sign that it does not really want peace. Israel is building this Wall to be an obstacle to any movement between Jews and Palestinians and to disturb Palestinian life..."
Vanunu's photos from the Dimona Nuclear Facility released to The Sunday Times in 1986

Indymedia.ie: What are the conditions of your release from jail?

Vanunu: I am under restriction not to speak to foreigners for six months since April 21st, and not to leave the country for one year. After six months they will review my restriction on speaking to foreigners - but I am already speaking to foreigners, all the time. So far, they have not done anything. I think they realise it is a stupid restriction because you cannot make a distinction between Israelis and non-Israelis when you speak. [The restriction] is about my rights as a human being and my political views. They will review it on October 21st and then we will see if they continue or stop it.

Indymedia.ie: Do you believe that the Israeli State is monitoring you today?

Vanunu: I believe that the Israeli spies, Mossad-Shin-beth, are monitoring me, my phone, my email, they know what I am doing. They are reading the news, following the media and Internet, they have a lot of information.

Indymedia.ie: So, they are probably listening to our conversation at this moment?

Vanunu: I believe so! But we are not doing anything wrong. I am repeating information that was published eighteen years ago or speaking my political views. If this is a democracy they should not fear me speaking.

Indymedia.ie: What other threats do you feel while living in Israel? From either political or religious groups?

Vanunu: I do not feel totally free. I have said that I am free but [with the restrictions] not totally free. I cannot travel freely within Israel, I cannot go on the streets because some right-wing religious Jews are opposed to me. Some of this is the result of the Israeli media creating a bad image of my case to Israelis. So a lot of people do not like me. So I do not feel free and I am not traveling in Israeli cities, I am staying only in East Jerusalem among Palestinians and among Christians and foreigners.

The only way I will feel free is when I get out of Israel and go to another state, in Europe or the United States.

Indymedia.ie: If you were to come to Ireland, what would you like to do with your new freedom here?

Vanunu: I would like to get out of Israel and start a new life. I hope the Irish government will help me to receive asylum and much more importantly to act, as a government, [to convince the Israelis] to let me go. That is what I need now. We need someone to ask the Israeli government to let me go. If I were to come to Ireland, I would like to write my book. I have an obligation to write my book for people who want to know my story. I would like to speak to people about anti-nuclear weapons, to speak about peace, and, if I can, to enter university to learn and teach.

Indymedia.ie: What are the chances that the Israeli Courts are going to allow you to leave the country? And, do you believe that the Israeli Courts are under political pressure to keep you within Israel?

Vanunu: We appealed to the Court already [about the restrictions] and it was rejected. The Courts are in the power of the government and used secret evidence that I was not allowed to hear. Without me or my lawyer being present, the government convinced a judge to continue the restrictions. So, I do not have any future in the courts. I do not expect any justice from the Courts.

	"I cannot go on the streets because some right-wing religious Jews are opposed to me. Some of this is the result of the Israeli media creating a bad image of my case to Israelis [....] I am staying only in East Jerusalem among Palestinians and among Christians and foreigners."
Vanunu's photos from the Dimona Nuclear Facility released to The Sunday Times in 1986

Indymedia.ie: What are the chances of political pressure within Israel being applied to allow your release from the restrictions?

Vanunu: Some negotiation by a foreign government or intervention by a European state [is needed] demanding that I be let go, explaining to the Israeli government that I do not have any secrets that can harm Israel, that I am going to restart my life. They should let me go as I have no more secrets to give - only what was published eighteen years ago.

So, I hope that a foreign state will come out and demand of them that they let me go. Either Ireland or the European Parliament, or indeed anyone.

Indymedia.ie: Are there any political parties in Israel that are pressuring the government for your freedom?

Vanunu: In Israel you will not find any political powers who are supporting me. Only some Palestinian Arab members of the Knesset Parliament. They themselves do not have any power and they are regarded as Israel's enemies. Inside Israel, you will not even find one non-Arab member of the Knesset who will stand and speak on my behalf. Because, on this issue of nuclear weapons, Israel is of one mind - Israelis are for nuclear weapons and they will not support me because I speak against nuclear weapons and because I want to make Israel a nuclear weapons-free zone.

Indymedia.ie: So, you believe this is a situation where only external pressure can give you your political and human rights?

Vanunu: Only foreign governments and external powers can convince them to let me go. If the Israelis are really a democracy they would respect my rights, my freedom of movement and my freedom of speech. Some people from abroad have spoken very clearly to Israel telling them they should respect these human rights and let me go.

I have served eighteen years - what they want. The full sentence. Even killers in Israel do not serve eighteen years! So they should let me go. It is only a matter of revenge and they continue because I am a Christian. If I were Jewish I could be free a long time ago.

Mordechai Vanunu in Palestine with Adeline O'Keeffe who along with 4 others chained herself to the railings of the Israeli embassy in London on 30 September 2004, the 18th anniversary of Mordechai's imprisonment.

Vanunu: I want to say that I have read a lot about Irish people and Irish culture. I read Irish books while in prison and enjoyed them very much. Including James Joyce's Ulysses, also books of poems by Seamus Heaney - I had learned that he knew about me and sent his support. I also read of Irish history. I think Ireland now has come out after a long sleep in the 19th and 20th Century and has now got a real status in Europe. I have many friends in Ireland who used to write me during my [prison] years, sending me books. I would love to come to Ireland.

Last night I enjoyed my first drink of Guinness, it was wonderful. I hope that Ireland will be proud enough and great enough to speak on my behalf to Israel (and ask Israel) to let me go. And I will be glad to stay in Ireland. I give my thanks to Ireland and the Irish people and hope one day I can visit Dublin and stay there.

Indymedia.ie: Thank you for this interview and when you come to Ireland there will be many people who would be happy to buy you many pints of Guinness.

Vanunu: OK! Slán go fóill.