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GAMA Workers Seek Immediate Government Intervention To Secure Information And Access To Accounts national |
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feature
 Wednesday April 13, 2005 12:43 by redjade dublinphoto at gmail dot com
 They Also Demand Immediate Publication Of Labour Inspectors’ Report A photoessay and account of the GAMA Workers Protest at the Dáil
At a major protest at the Dáil at lunchtime on Tuesday 12th April, the Turkish workforce of the GAMA construction company, joined and supported by Irish construction and other workers, called upon the Government to intervene immediately to secure the necessary information for the workers in relation to the secret bank accounts that GAMA opened in their names in Finasbank, Holland. A call was made that the Government, through the Dutch Government or directly with Finansbank, ensure that by this weekend each worker has a full statement of his account since it was first opened. This means an account of each transaction and the total funds in each worker’s name.
Please note: language problems make it impossible to give a contact person for the TWAG. However, Joe Higgins T.D. or Councillor Mick Murphy will confirm the information in this statement. |
Turkish Workers’ Action Group Press Statement: Tuesday 12th April 2005
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Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52{ photos by redjade } ©
{ photos by redjade } ©
Cearta do chuile dhuine idir Thuircigh, Éireannaigh is eile.
12 April 2005
Union leaders to press Michael Martin for radical reforms
of Labour Inspectorate and tougher penalties for rogue employers
http://www.siptu.ie/news/article.php?id=1394
Irish Congress of Trade Unions General Secretary David Begg and SIPTU General President Jack O’Connor are meeting the Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment Micheal Martin this afternoon to discuss a number of urgent issues arising out of the Gama Construction disput
-- -- --
BATU - The Building and Allied Trades' Union
http://www.batu.ie/
-- -- --
Published: 9 April, 2005
GAMA claims on workers don't stand up - O'Connor
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/9162
Clondalkin Sinn Féin councillor Shane O‚Connor has denounced the move by GAMA Construction to repatriate 140 Turkish workers from its site in Balgaddy and claimed their explanations for doing so don't stand up.
Cllr O‚Connor said: "GAMA claim that the workers have been made redundant because it is unable to proceed with the next phase of building due to the residency of a Traveller family on part of the site.
"This is a red herring. GAMA had already agreed to proceed with the next phase of construction in an arrangement which made provision for the relocation of this family over the next few weeks.
"GAMA is using this excuse to victimise workers who have dared to fight for their rights. There is no justification for postponing the construction of the next 70 dwellings.
-- -- --
GAMA workers urge Govt to secure Dutch accounts
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2005/0412/breaking26.htm
Gama Construction workers have called on the Government to intervene to secure the information relating to the bank accounts held in their names in Holland.
The workers, who staged a protest outside the Dail today, claim millions of euros in unpaid wages has been hidden by the Turkish construction company at a branch of Finansbank in Amsterdam.
[....]
The Taoiseach told the Dail today that officials from the Department Enterprise, Trade & Employment were in the process of contacting the bank and that help from the Irish Ambassador in Holland would be sought if necessary.
Mr Ahern said officials were seeking access to the bank records "to ensure that the rights and monies of these workers is secured".
He also said the money involved was substantially more than previous estimates of €30 million.
Earlier Siptu called on the Government to withhold public monies due to Gama Construction until the dispute over pay and conditions at the company is resolved.
The company is responsible for several public contracts, including the Huntstown power station and the Ennis and Ballincollig bypasses.
-- -- --
Hundreds to join Dáil Gama protest
http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgDy3OuhcP8cAsg7IQHSmeYhNE.asp
Today’s demonstration follows a series of unprecedented protest marches and continuing work stoppages by more than 400 Turkish employees since the discovery of previously unknown workers’ bank accounts in the Netherlands.
[....]
Meanwhile the High Court yesterday extended a temporary injunction preventing publication of a government report into Gama for a further week.
It allows the Government more time to prepare its response to the injunction and will today deliver its affidavit to the High Court.
-- -- --
Tuesday, April 12
Minimum wage rises to E7.65 an hour
http://www.businessworld.ie/bworld/rankednews2.htm?s=index.html;s2=rankednews2.htm;r=3;a=1147822
The Minister for Labour Affairs today announced that he has accepted the Labour Court recommendation to increase the national minimum wage to E7.65 per hour with effect from 1 May 2005 - an increase of E0.65 an hour.
-- -- --
Irish jobs 18pc cheaper than UK
http://www.businessworld.ie/bworld/livenews.htm?a=1147649
Employers pay out 18pc less in Ireland for their employees than in the UK and Ireland ranks eighth most expensive for jobs in the EU, the latest Mercer Human Resources Consulting survey found today.
-- -- --
Ballincollig Bypass Motorway
Cork / Ireland
http://www.international.gama.com.tr/english/projedetay.php?Id=154
11 km dual carriageway, 2k m single carriageway, 9 overbridges, 11 culverts, 5 underpasses
This project has been executed by Gama Tubin J.V., in which Gama Ireland has 60 % share.
More GAMA News
http://www.international.gama.com.tr/english/newsfromus.php
GAMA Project: Ballincollig Bypass Motorway in Cork
Well done to all present. Good to see so many workers turning out. Great photos too jd
Very good photos by redjade, especially one of Joe being held up by the Turkish workers.
I'm a SIPTU member, I rang up SIPTU to ask them about paying the Turkish strikers strike money from the Union funds. I was told by an official in the construction branch that it was none of my business and that it's not my branch. I argued with this disgusting bureaucrat and told him that workers solidarity is central to trade unionism. SIPTU bureaucrats are doing nothing for them and may as well be in the pay of GAMA as they are a hindrance to them rather than a help.
Great work by Joe Higgins, Mick Murphy and the rest of the Socialist Party.
Great demo today - great pics. Very brave of the Turkish workers to come out like that considering the huge amount of intimidation they face from GAMA management.
An interesting fact- GAMA has paid a huge amount of money to an Irish PR company, Murray Consultants, to propagate its blatant lies.
While some would say that PR by its very nature involves stretching the truth - Murray Consultants persistence in dressing up the lies of a ruthless company that has stolen from its workers; broken every labour law known to man and woman; and intimidated any worker who stood up to them takes the biscuit for moral repugnancy. I don't suppose there's any depths to which this PR company won't stoop if the right amount of cash is waved at them.
there's email addresses for some of the bosses at the pr company, how about a few emails to tell them what we think of them. Remeber the gama workers were on 2 euro an hour and haven't been paid in weeks. These coporate liars are living it up at their expense.
Murray Consultants can be contacted at
Dartmouth House, No 1, Grand Parade, Dublin 6.
Tel: 353 1 4980300 Fax: 353 1 4980344 Email: pr@murrayconsult.ie
He's the best TD we have, and a socialist in nature and deed, not just in name (unlike some others I could mention).
Murray is certainly one example of irish complicity in this almost victorian scandal of gama's exploitation of their workers.
Whatever they may say about the beginning of the scandal there is no way they can possibly feign ignorance now. (or at least for the last weeks) Gama have been involved in willful coruption, criminality and the vicious exploitation of labour. And this is to say nothing of the fear and intimidation they have put on their workforce.
Everyday there is something to add to the scandal, for example only this evening I discovered a gama worker has to work 12 months before he gets holidays. The morality of this is sickening. These are real people with families and all that entails. It's like something from the 1930's.
And we can't get away from the fact that gama got away with this for over four years. That is for four years workers were being forced to worked seven day, eighty hour weeks for 2.20 an hour! Didn't anyone notice? There must be a whole layer of irish professionals who turned a blind eye, murray's obviously being one. But what about the engineers, the executives from the esb, the state and other contracts gama worked on. Didn't they wonder how gama could finish six months ahead of schedule for half the price of an irish company and with the same amont of workers?
We have to remember it was a couple of irish carpenters who finally spoke up and a very small left party which went on to give it further attention. Which is saying something about bourgeois society in celtic tiger ireland.
And the question has to be asked, where on earth was siptu. They have taken tens of thousands of euro's in union subs over the last four years from these very workers. Did they even once actually speak to them or enquire after them? I don't understand how they could accept this money while giving absolutely no representation. And this too we should remember is a disservice to their irish workers who have been undercut fivefold by the bonded labour. It says something about the cosyness to the establishment siptu has become used to. It's forgotten the basic reason they exist. To defend their members from the likes of gama.
I think we all have serious questions to ask about what's going on in our midst. This isn't 1913 or james larkin, this is happening here and now. And probably this is just the tip of the iceberg. If we ourselves don't speak out against this sort of exploitation, we will be next, or left on the dole. Unless we all keep an eye out for this sort of exploitation and speak out, it will happen again and again until that's all that is left. Maybe it should start simply just speak to immigrant workers and see how they are getting on. And when they are in trouble stand with them.
...I only heard tonight. There's up to 1,000 gama workers returned home that no nothing of the dutch bank accounts! it gets worse and worse!
Although my problems with the 'leader' of the Northern SP is well documented, I mist say Joe Higgins is a completely different character. Like chalk and cheese one would be as compared to the other.
I have followed his activism over time and must say I hold respect for the man.
Well done Joe - we need more like you
He is referring to Peter Hadden. I think Peter and the SPs efforts up North on disputes such as Montupet, Term Time Workers and Belfast Airport workers stand up well to the SPs record down South with GAMA. Having a TD and the profile that goes with it is an obvious advantage.
I don't mean to derail a thread that is essentially about GAMA but there is a tendency for some on the left to single out individual SPers as exceptional and therefore exceptions when the Party as a whole engages in good campaign work.
"I don't mean to derail a thread that is essentially about GAMA but there is a tendency for some on the left to single out individual SPers as exceptional and therefore exceptions when the Party as a whole engages in good campaign work."
There is a tendency amongst some individual SPers to single out some on the left. Ol' Kev (and he's not alone) hasn't missed an opportunity to have a pop at Joan Collins whenever he gets the chance.
Mark I could go into the Sectarian activities of Hadden which ranged from bizzare at times, to out right dangerous {and although I have raised such elsewhere and many activists would be aware of such} such instances I will also detail in depth -in a book I am working on as such was my dis- belief at it at times. That was until I came to the understanding as to why it was done and there are many similar mindsets about.
While he may as you state do some good activism his blind hatred - and I couch it in those terms {due to my experiences} of others on the left at times seen him act in bizarre and increasingly dangerous { to activists} ways at times.
You as an SP member have your opinion which you are entitled to - yet I have my own real experinces of dealings with him over the years, so we will differ on that for the time being - as I agree the thread should not be derailed.
Again well done Joe - Credit where Credit is due
At the risk of continuing a derailment, MO'B's point is correct.
Joe Higgins has played a very important role in bringing the GAMA situation to light. Mick Murphy, a Socialist Party councillor in Tallaght, played what was possibly an even more significant role. Many other SP members have been involved to varying degrees in this work. The point is that Joe and Mick and the other SP activists do this not as individuals but as part of an organisation. Their actions and activism are the actions and activism of the Socialist Party.
It suits some to portray these events as the work of Joe Higgins, wonderful man and "socialist TD" (I note in passing that Socialist Worker as usual refuses to mention his party affiliations). It should be obvious that the last person who would have any time for that kind of nonsense is Joe himself.
"At the risk of continuing a derailment, MO'B's point is correct.
Joe Higgins has played a very important role in bringing the GAMA situation to light. Mick Murphy, a Socialist Party councillor in Tallaght, played what was possibly an even more significant role. Many other SP members have been involved to varying degrees in this work. The point is that Joe and Mick and the other SP activists do this not as individuals but as part of an organisation. Their actions and activism are the actions and activism of the Socialist Party. "
Spoken like the true hack. There was me thinking that our class was the most important thing not the building of our sect.
I don't suppose the GAMA workers played much of a role then?
Welcome back to our spuppy friends. You've been missed. Glad to see you found your next big thing now that you have put the bin tax campaign behind you.
the gama campaign is a party effort and we must remember it was the tallaght branch and Mick that did the initial groundwork, but meetings were organised and posters put up and leaflets put out all over ireland, everybody played some part.
Obviously every party has different individuals and there can be personality clashes but the party is a party, full stop. It's a collective not a collection of individuals. If Joe was an independent TD in Dublin West he wouldn't have had a tallaght branch to do the initial investigation that he could bring to light in the dail.
But back to the point, I think we can all learn from this experience that victories can be won rather than simply protesting and workers even in the most difficult situations can be convinced to struggle, and can go on to win. We shouldn't sully the victory with needless bickering as I'm sure Gama's PR media monitors (murray and co.) are taking all of this in, corporate whores that they are.
I dont really care who exactly did what on this issue, the point is that a good job was done by the GAMA workers themselves, Joe Higgins, Mick Murphy, the Socialist Party as an organisation etc. SIPTU seem to have been caught on the hop though, only getting involved very belatedly, which somehow doesnt surprise me.
The downside is that left groups have a tendency to run with campaigns and just drop them wholescale and move on to the next. I dont think the SP is going to do this with the GAMA workers, but it sure as hell's seems to have done it with the Bin Tax issue. Not one motion on the issue at their recent annual conference! Even the Sinners had a debate on it.
the bin tax was discussed, there was also a motion on the lack of an alliance at following election. You are mis informed ex millitant, the media may not have reported it but it happened.
all members are free to put forward whatever motions they wish, don't expect others to do something you won't bother doing. Put your money where your mouth is, re join the party and we'll look forward to your input next conference, If the motion is good it could very well be passed.
This thread seems to be descending into an anti-SP rant. So I'll try to make some serious points and attempt to stop the degeneration of this thread. The GAMA scandal says a lot about life in capitalist Ireland. The workers were treated like slaves. In fact, with slaves you couldn't send them home! I think that this has been followed by many people. In many workplaces people have been following this story, particularly in building sites. The Socialist Party have done very well in highlighting the issue and camapigning with the GAMA workers. No-one except the bitterest sectarian nut can deny that. Joe Higgins also recently prominant in the Kunle deportation campaign. I reckon if he ran again in the Euro election he would get far more than the 5.5% he got last June.
I was at the SP conference and there was a good bit of discussion about the bin tax issue and the SP still is involved in the campaigns. I don't know where this guy gets his info! Maybe he thinks the 150 words of a mention the conference got in the Irish Times is an accurate verbatim account of all the discussion had there!!
These Turkish companies are notorious for paying bribes to get contracts.
Now we all know Fianna Fail give these jobs not to the cheapest tender-but to their own cronies in the construction industry.
I wonder if someone somewhere,on the irish side of the fence got looked after for providing such cheap and efficient labour in the first place.?
why doesn't rte ask her about this ongoing story and why don't they spend a little time to track down ryder investments?
sounds suspiciously like a name somebody down at the local irish golf club would come up with does it not?
2 sets of books?
if that report isn't published then Joe should release all information he has about this criminal activity masquerading as a labour dispute
why aren't there ads on our tv already letting immigrants know how to blow the whistle on other cases of slavery like exploitation?
Gama slams 'false allegations and innuendo' :: latest
Construction company Gama Endustri has slammed allegations that it has paid its Turkish workers €2 to €3 per hour, that employees have worked excessive hours or that there are any unpaid wages.
The company also denied that employees do not have access to their money in their Dutch bank accounts.
A report on the treatment of Turkish workers by Gama has not been published as Gama is taking High Court proceedings in an attempt to prevent it from being made public. Enterprise Minister Micheal Martin today told the Seanad that he will be giving a report to the Gardaí and the Revenue Commissioners.
Meanwhile, Gama issued a rebuttal of the allegations today, saying: "The facts are as follows:
- Gama’s current minimum hourly rates for construction workers are €12.96, in full compliance with the Registered Employment Agreement for the construction industry. Under this agreement no construction workers can be paid less than this rate and many are paid at higher rates.
- Each Turkish construction employee receives his full salary based on these rates. This is paid in a number of different tranches, as follows:
A portion is paid directly to the employee in Ireland in cash, after deductions for PAYE, PRSI and board.
A portion is paid directly into each employees personal bank accounts in Turkey to cover family or other needs, less Turkish tax and social insurance
A portion is paid directly into each employees personal bank accounts in a Dutch bank under the remittance basis of taxation without any deductions."
Gama went on to insist "Gama’s Turkish construction employees are remunerated generously and are not underpaid. Irish construction industry rates are among the highest in Europe and are far higher than Turkish workers would get in Turkey.
"There are no unpaid wages. All wages due have been fully paid, either directly or by transfer into the bank accounts of each employee in Turkey and Holland.
"The money in the Dutch bank account is fully and irrevocably available to each employee at any time. Suggestions that employees cannot access their own accounts are not true. The bank has confirmed that many employees have already accessed their accounts and drawn down their funds."
Gama added: "The size of Gama’s Turkish workforce in Ireland and their work permits are dependent on the work contracts the company has in hand. As work permits expire on a time basis or as contracts come to an end, Turkish employees are repatriated.
"Gama is currently in that situation with over 130 of its existing workforce. The recent protests commenced as Gama was finalising arrangements to repatriate these employees.
"Gama believes their natural fears and apprehensions about repatriation have been heightened by the current controversy. In addition, some of these workers would like to have the opportunity to stay in Ireland and Gama cannot offer them this opportunity."
well done all in the south. a very important for workers.
It all sounds like the makings of another tribunal and a few hundred million for Bertie,s pals in the Four Goldmines....
Wish I were a Lawyer.....
"the gama campaign is a party effort "
So all those gama workers are party members? Or would you like to make a small amendment to your statement?
While the SP state it was a party effort and while I would applaud the stance by the workers - I though differentiate between the SP and activists within the SP, as I have stated many times before. This as I do in many such organisations.
My congrats goes to Joe as he is the only one as a Northerner I see and read about on this issue and others. In doing so, and more especially through the respect he has from genuine activists I see him as a good working class fighter.
No doubt there are others who deserve equal credit, and if they work in a similar view as Joe then I can hold respect for them
Yet to attempt to put an Northern SP leader who finger pointed and shouted that other Anti War activists where 'the people reasonable for the unlawful sit downs' at the front of the Belfast City Hall during the height of the Anti War Movement -. to the disbelief not only of other activists but of the media as the state forces looked on. Of a person who at a fundraiser for workers which seen loyalist supporters there who where close to such organisations, shouting out 'Here come the Provo supporters', of a person who informed management of a bar that they should not let a 'differing left group use the premises because they supported so and so' - the list goes on and on of his sectarian and dangerous actions.
And so to attempt to put this person in the same vein as Joe I will not do. They may be in the same party but as stated they are like Chalk and Cheese that is why Joe has the personal support and Hadden is irrelevant outside his own party.
I have always stated that the way one attempts to work and engage with others is as important as ones politics. Such events though will only play a small part in my book although I will be detailing various other instances that have happened similar to other activists and ex SP members I engage with.
I believe such is important as it shows how some in the left with that old sectarian mindset still attempt to operate.
And that is what it is all about - what drives the likes of Hadden to do such things is pure hatred and sectarianism not towards the individual as much - but towards the party they belong to.
That is why Joe has so much support outside of the party and Hadden is irrelevant outside it. Whether one likes it or not many would support Joe as Joe due to his activism and way of working. Hadden is a different cattle of fish who has and would find no support outside the SP and I and many many others believe he has held the SP in the North back due to that mindset.
You may disagree with this as is your right as would many within the SP but that is my understanding and as stated will be detailed in greater depth in my book.
Again well done to Joe ,to the workers, to the other SP activists who work in the same vein as Joe.
Carlin is wrong to say that Joe Higgins is just a personality. The fact is that it is the Socialist Party that raised this issue. Who do you think put up all the posters? Who organised the meetings? Leafleted building sites? I'm sure Joe did do this work too but so did other members of the SP. It's also to do with politics. Joe Higgins' and Peter Hadden's politics are the same. They are both revolutionary marxists that have been involved in the workers movmeent for years. The difference is that Joe has "TD" after his name therefore is more prominant and more likely to have his work covered in the media. Davy, I'd have thought that you would have a bit of sense and not buy into the media establishment portrayal of Joe as just one outstanding personality.
Sorry Mary there is another difference as I have already pointed out - that is in the way they set out to work. As I stated, 'I have always stated that the way one attempts to work and engage with others is as important as ones politics'.
Also on the issue of personality { And I did not say he was just a personality} - I am stating that Joe has personal support as he has party support- that is a fact.
Indeed I would support Joe, as Joe inside or outside the SP {due in large part to his way of working as a Socialist as I have seen to date} but I would not necessarily support the SP.
This would go similar to other organisations and individuals - and others would think in a similar vein
"Joe Higgins' and Peter Hadden's politics are the same."
The cloning programme must be going well then. What a waste of time having an annual conference.
No use complaining to me about lack of information about the SP conference when the only thing posted on the SP website about their conference are articles from the Irish Times and Examiner!
Could Mary or hs-sp post the Bin Tax motion they claim was passed by the conference? I'll happily acknowledge my mistake if they can prove that such a motion was pased. I wish they would acknowledge what SP members say in private: that the Bin Tax issue is dead. I don't agree with that view but I've no prob with people holding it as an honest opinion as long as they explain it in public and don't try to pretend they are still in favour of active campaigning on the issue. When the SP do good work, such as supporting the GAMA workers or the initial work on the BIn Tax issue, I will give credit where credit's due but when the sectish, control freaky behaviour of the ruling clique shines through it needs to be exposed.
Davy Carlin you're last posting shows that you are only interested in personality politics. You think that Joe is a "socialist TD", the fact is that he is a "Socialist Party TD". You (just like the capitalist media establishment) love to think that there is a division between people supporting the SP and people supporting Joe Higgins. The fact is that in the local elections Joe did not run in Fingal last year but SP vote went up. Not exactly an indication of a large 'personality' vote. Davy, you may have personal differences with one or two SP members. But you cannot take away the fact that they are in the same Party as Joe Higgins and they are doing many of the same type of activities as Joe (but not as high profile). For example in North the FBU strike, the Airport workers strike, the Term-time workers, Water Tax non-payment, etc.
Davy, I think that you are insecure in your politics. You were a member of the SWP who did support the Provos. Recently the SWP called the Provos as "revolutionary army". Did you agree with this? Do you agree with the SP position on the PIRA? You probably don't agree with many of the political positions of the SP in NI such as Non-payment of water charges and cross-community class unity against sectarianism. Why not tackle these issues honestly in a debate and not drag in personality clashes.
joe is a socialist and a td and is very popular which is an approximation of what davy said which closely approximates a reasonable point of view - me gets the feeling knives are out for davy - i do wonder why - is his head a wee bit too over the parapet?
Saw first ever copy of street seen today in dublin btw - it looks great and feels like a real 'movement' effort
I try to stay out of these fights, but what the hell...
The reason this and other GAMA protests worked, at least in the media, was due to that it wasn't solely that 'usual suspects' protesting.
Much like the Kunle issue and RAR - RAR assisted in whatever way it could but the effort was in the hands of the Palmerstown school kids, the media and public loved them and their idealism. It was infectious. Since Kunle's un-deportation the issue of Asylum Seekers is now seen in a new light.
Hundreds of Turks marching to Dáil doesn't happen everyday in Dublin - it was new and their story is compelling, interesting and creates sympathy. Now migrant worker issues are seen in a new light.
NONE of the above had anything to do with SP/SWP/trotsky/revolutionary sloganeering or whatever.
Joe Higgins deserves all credit (and the SP activists involved, too) for making this happen - but remember they succeeded because they broadened the movement, not cut it into self-referential pieces of ever narrowing sectarian nonsense.
Joe Higgins properly touted the Socialist Party often during the rally - He and the SP earned that right because they did the work and did not stay on the sidelines doing little more than sell newspapers and the like.
Because of Joe Higgins' efforts Greens and Labour voiced their support and commitment to the cause of the GAMA workers. Thus, through Joe's non-sectarian approach and broadening of the movement, this issue will not go away.
Finally, this issue is NOT over. It was a good rally and there have been others before it and there needs to be more in the future, probably. The GAMA workers still have not gotten what they deserve.
Also, people need to focus on the root issue here - Ireland does not have have a 'Green Card System.'
The GAMA corporation exploited their workers because they knew the workers were trapped into bonded labour. If these workers had a Green Card they could leave GAMA and find other work in Ireland.
I've been reading in the papers about how Ireland about to start a Green Card system for the last three years - and it never seems to happen. Now there's talk of a Green Card system just for 'hi-tech workers' - allowing GAMA workers to continue to be exploited.
What Joe may have done is make it impossible for McDowell and the gov't to create these narrowly defined Green Cards and force a general Green Card system for all migrant workers.
Because of Joe's efforts many thousands of migrants may have eventually have equality in the workplace.
Yep, Joe kicks ass!
Again I state in relation to your first point that Joe has both party and personal support - that is a fact - A lot of that support would carry even if he was not in the SP.
I had raised similar in relation to E Mc Cann in the- SEA in the past, as I again knew many who do not support the SWP - SEA but would support McCann { Indeed even the SP stated this}.
So you disagree - fair enough - but that is my position and I respect your right to have yours.
Secondly again I state I know that they are in the same party - but, - as stated - they operate differently. Hadden is renowned {by those that have come across him} for his dangerous sectarianism through - out the Northern Networks, Joe is seen differently.
'Insecure in my politics' now there is a new one, those that know me know I will debate anyone, indeed I have been ridiculed at times for engaging and debating with a wide variety of people and organisations.
In fact ask Hadden to come on Indymedia - let us debate - I await your reply, of course he would not be insecure in his politics - surely not?
As for political positions may it be the RUC being 'workers in uniform' or calling for non payment of water charges I look at each on its merit.
I am for non payment - and as for 'probably not agreeing with working class unity may it be against sectarianism, racism, privatisation or whatever, well I think you either do not really read what I have written or you follow with blind faith what has been handed down to you.
Briefly -with having been invited into Protestant working class areas by the community representatives for debate and discussion may it be on the Newtownards Road in East Belfast or the Sandy Row in South I have also sought unity on specific issues through engagement
With having postered and canvassed from the Shankill Road to the Annadale flats I have engaged directly on the streets and on the doorsteps.
And having been a key activist in the Falls and Shankill march, through to the Anti Racism Movement I have and do reach out across the 'communities' in a real and practical way - to the ridicule of some.
And apart from having beeng involved in the FBU and Nipsa disputes I had played a part in walkouts against sectarian threats in the late nineties {although the SP say the SWP played no part in such} and had played a role in seeing the largest Anti Sectarian Rally seen in the North after the murder of a young postal workers {Both of these issues will be covered in detail in my book}
Again I am not dragging in 'personality clashes' but stating simply why Joe has got personal support {as well as party support} while Hadden is and would be irrelevant outside of the SP. Again you differ as is your right but those are 'my own' understandings arrived at through direct political dealings with such over the years. I do hope though as stated time and again that change can be effected in relation to such.
Finally - So today through various engagements I have been slotted into the Anarchist camp for going on a dissent bus, having sympathies {again} with loyalists for engaging with them and sympathies with Republicans for working in campaigns with them .
I have also been called a Socialist {thank you} but on the other hand a bit of a Liberal again - for involvement in MPH etc etc.
As said water of a duck back - indeed it gives me a chuckle at times.
Redjade I agree with quite a bit of what you say - although I hope it is a debate rather than a fight. as I see it in that light
it is always more profitable to do things wrong -- therefore when profiteers run/own the government everything will be done as corruptly, stupidly, inelegantly, wastefully and expensively as possible.
I dont really understand why some socialist party members are bickering with people on this thread. Your lot has done great work on the issue. Nobody else did other than the Gama workers themselves.
When anonymistas (like me!) goad you on a thread about it because they cant bring themselves to just leave it at well done, they look bitter. Im sure its annoying to have people put everything down to Joe H so as to avoid praising the sp but so what? What do you gain by rising to it? Nothing, you just make yourselves look petty and a bit immature. You would do better to continue with what is really great work on the issue and leave your partners in bickering to it.
The Gama workers heroic stand is an inspiration. Faced with all the insecurity of their position and the intimidation of their employers and living in a foreign land they have stood up and fought. As far as I can see, I do not live in Ireland, this struggle has the potential to open up a whole discussion on the Celtic Tiger and its use of cheap labor. I am not not sure if it is correct to say this. But it seems to me that the Cetlic Tiger will never be the same again.
This would definitely be the case if the trade union leaders would act in the fashion in which the founders of the Irish trade union movement acted. Connolly and Larkin would have sought to take every measure to spread this struggle to every part of the country and internationally, to every worker nationally and internationally who is low paid and exploited. There would have been no quiet discussions with government ministers and employers to resolve the issue behind the backs of the workers.
Unfortunately the present trade union leaders, with a few honorable exceptions who have been on the streets with the Gama workers, that exist today in Ireland and internationally are far from the calibre of Connolly and Larkin. The result has been that a major role has been played in the Gama struggle by Joe Higgins and the SP. Nobody with any honesty at all can deny or should try to deny the very positive role played by these Comrades. Seeing Joe's support amongst the Gama workers makes this very clear.
However this is not the end of the story. The role played by Joe and the SP in the Gama strike has increased their authority and support amongst the working class in general but especially amongst the activists in the working class. This therefore also puts increased responsibility on the SP. The real test for the SP now is what it will do with this increased authority and support. To answer this we need to look at some fundamental questions. The most fundamental of all is what is the main need of the working class at this time.
Worldwide and internationally the capitalist class are on the offensive and the working class are being driven back. The main need of the working class is to halt and throw back this offensive and to open up a new offensive of its own. The unification and mobilization of the working class nationally and internationally is what is needed to achieve this. So Joe and the SP should be looking at using their increased authority to increase the unity of the working class nationally and nationally, and especially at this time when the working class movement is at a low ebb, to increase the unity of the working class activists nationally and internationally.
Specifically what would this mean. Call for the formation of Gama support committees thoughout the country and launch a speaking tour with Joe and Gama workers. Specifically call for these support committees to include all those who want to fight low pay, unemployment, collaboration with the employers etc. In particular the SP should spell out that they call on all activists from whatever union and left political background to help build and participate in these committees. Such a step would be the best way to mobilize the largest forces in support of the Gama workers and the best way to build activist committees throughout the country.
Joe and the SP should also openly take up the issue of left sectarianism in such a campaign. That is spell out that left sectarianism is putting the interests of your own party or group or ideas above the interests of the working class and its needs. They should explain that left sectarianism does major damage to the working class and its struggles. It splits activists from different left parties and it isolates many many left trade union and community activists as they are turned off by the left sectarianism of the left parties. This fight against left sectarianism should be made concrete in the struggle to build the Gama support committees. The SP should make clear that under no conditions does it want to control them.
Unfortunately it does not seem likely that the SP and Joe will do this. When asked recently by a union activist about getting more support for the Gama struggle in a particular area, a middle level member of the SP said all help was welcome but the leadership of the SP had to discuss this particular case to make sure solidarity was not being organized by "enemies of the party."
Pessimism is also warranted because of the role played in the recent forum of left trade union activists in Dublin. This brought together 35 left union activists most of whom have been fighting in the unions all their adult life. There were members of no parties present, there were members of the SWP there and members of other parties. The SP tried to stop their members attending. Eventually sending two members to "attend but not participate". Incredible. This is left sectarianism at its most damaging to the working class and its struggles.
So to conclude on this point all credit to Joe and the SP in the South for their role in the Gama struggle. However this not only increases their authority it also increases their responsibility to the working class. Unfortunately it has to be recognized that Joe and the SP continues their left sectarian methods which are so damaging to the working class. Maybe the pressure for unity from the Gama workers can help change this. Maybe some more of the trade union members in the SP can stand up to the full timers in the leadership of the SP who dominate its politics.
A couple of final points. Those on this list who condemn everything the SP does are just as guilty of left sectarianism as the SP leadership. I believe that the best approach is to identify left sectarianism as a major damaging element amongst the left and the activist working class movement. Then to take this up wherever we meet it and to raise the need to oppose this in the working class movement.
I believe that in the SP and in the SWP and that amongst the many individual left activists there are many, especially trade union activists who do not agree with the left sectarianism of their parties or do not want to continue in isolation. We need to identify this problem of left sectarianism and seek to unify activists in all the left parties and none to fight this left sectarianism. I am not talking here about all the revolutionary socialist parties joing here. I am talking more along the lines of the recent left forum of union activists in Dublin which I believe was a first step in this direction.
Finally the issue of Hadden in the North has been raised. My experience of a long period in the CWI with this person is of somebody who is totally incapable of admitting a mistake, thinks he knows everything, seeks to control the SP in the North without any other voice being heard. The idea of a collective leadership, different views, factions, all necessary according to Trotsky if there is to be a healthy party, is anathema to Hadden. As we would have to say it is also anathema to the top full time leadership in the South and in the CWI as a whole.
John Throne.
I think he made it rain today!
One quick point, the reason the sp seems to be involved routinely in these sort of campaigns is because it has kept it's orientation towards the working class and workers rather than around the alleged movement, (i've been back in ireland almost a year now and to be honest this movement is a hell of a lot smaller than I expected!). The role of the sp in gama was alot greater than many realise, and as I said before started long before joe stood up in the dail, the sites were clandestinely leafleted by comrades in tallaght etc. And it was the trip to amsterdam that won the support of the workers. As it proved what the leaflets had been saying. But obviously without the workers the campaign was nothing, but thats like saying without the players the football team is nothing (something we take for granted prolier).
The swp is smoving so far to the right its unrecognisable to even when I left Ireland 5 years ago, in the latest socialist worker they even praise the pope!). If we move into the so called movement politics, there will be no one left to even attempt to represent workers.
Personally I believe left unity will happen when the swp get their act together and win some serious support. Stop messing around jumping from campaign to campaign and stop the turnover of members. Once they win serious support and practice serious politics (ie don't change positions to suit fashion) the sp will have no choice but to support their candidates.
ex militant, its in the southern document which is in two parts, I've got a party card waiting for you when you want to get off the ditch. If you want to change the party you'll have to join.
and anyone else who likes what we do but should change some aspects. We're not going to change policy for some anon (obviously not you davy) hurlers on the ditch, but if you join you just might be able to do something, if you're serious. No party is perfect but as far as I can see there is none in ireland that even comes close. If someone supports socialism in general but disagrees with certain aspects of the party, they should join and try to change those aspects. If people support joe higgins they should join as the blanch branch is always short of bodies for posters etc. Either way if the posters are serious they should consider it.
John, I can agree with much of what you say, more especially in relation to Left Sectarianism.
Also the 'enemies of the Party' rang very true -as that way of thinking and that protectionist mindset {in relation to other socialists} I have raised on many occasions before.
As for,
'Finally the issue of Hadden in the North has been raised. My experience of a long period in the CWI with this person is of somebody who is totally incapable of admitting a mistake, thinks he knows everything, seeks to control the SP in the North without any other voice being heard'
That will ring true amongst many many activists also outside of the SP across the activist spectrum that have had dealings with him. So I am glad that a once long term leading member also states similar - maybe then some will listen, who knows? as I know some excellent comrades within the SP.
But unfortunately I believe though that such are things that little will change in that respect - as the limited ranks will be reigned in {in the North} - but as stated such way of working has and will be to the detriment of the SP in the North, as has been widely acknowledged outside its ranks over the years and presently..
And as for
'The idea of a collective leadership, different views, factions, all necessary according to Trotsky if there is to be a healthy party, is anathema to Hadden. As we would have to say it is also anathema to the top full time leadership in the South and in the CWI as a whole'.
I take this onboard given not only your many years on the CWI leaderships but primarily that I can respect you as a genuine activist - through having followed your debates amongst others avenues over the years.
John like myself has raised many points - our names have been put and many know who we are.
So I again state if the SP wants to debate - more especially Hadden - then let’s begin.
Many important issues have been raised here and I am prepared to debate fraternally
Mary stated - 'Davy, I think that you are insecure in your politics' and ' Why not tackle these issues honestly in a debate'.
Therefore I am publicly willing {as I have always done} to debate my 'insecure politics' and attempt to tackle the issues honestly in debate as you state. Are you?
There are many issues raised here that would be good to begin a debate - and should be brought and opened up to the wider movements.
And of course we can ignore the 'anonymistas ', as stated, if we so choose.
Debate should not be feared but embraced. And anyway what has the SP to lose debating some - one who is 'insecure in his politics'.
Have but a few hours tomorrow before I head to Dublin if you wish to engage.
Hs - sp as always you raise some good political points and have an approach to debate and engagement that I hold respect for.
I believe the points on the SWP should also be developed in debate -
I have to split now but will return tomorrow for futher engagement and to come back on a few of the points raised. D
So let's begin. D
This is so weak. Here are people who are obviously organised in a time where obviously it is immediate to act and they have nothing to do but bickering about other people who actively supported workers rights. to davy whatshisname and JohnMcwhoever: Get your ass together and collect some money for the campaign about GAMA, and best give it to the SP, they have better things to do than promoting their books!
But one must try.
You see -what some may attempt to direct as bickering others will clearly see as debate. This is what one usually reverts to calling it {bickering} if they cannot engage in the debate.
Anon - I therefore take it that you do not wish to address any of the serious points raised - fair enough - it is your right to retain Anon as it is to attempt to side step the core issues at debate - I believe therefore your comments may be seen in that light.
Side step - I am really building up a great list over these weeks, the -
Davy whatshisname and JohnMcwhoever - classic, simply classic, Chuckle
PS - believe it or not Anon I am also quite busy as an activist - and indeed will be leaving for Dublin shortly - and if you wish why don't we meet up over the weekend and I will do a collection with you for the Gama workers.
I will be at the RAR meeting tonight in Dublin- then speaking at a rally in Athlone -and have another event on Sunday, but will fit in the time for other solidarity.
Finally as stated it is debate and such should not be feared by pretending it is anything else. Also I have gave credit to quite a few individuals amongst others who I believed deserved it - while at the same time pointing out as have others the issues we hold with others.
That is debate - that’s politics - get used to it
.
Just drop me an Email to my address. D
http://www.socialistworld.net/index2.html?/eng/2005/04/12ireland.html
"And the question has to be asked, where on earth was siptu."
Good question hs but here's another one:
Why didn't Mick raise it with his union? Mick's a SIPTU member (isn't he?). Did he raise it with his shop steward and/or branch?
What's that old saying about a union only being as good as its members.
Gama got 1,000 permits despite being ineligible
Chris Dooley, Industry and Employment Correspondent
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/0416/4116795606HMGAMA.html
Nearly 1,000 work permits have been issued to Gama Construction since January last year despite a ban on the issuing of such permits for building workers.
The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment yesterday refused to discuss whether special arrangements were put in place for the Turkish construction company, which is accused of exploiting workers.
Building workers have been ineligible for work permits since April 2003 under a policy introduced at that time by then minister for enterprise Mary Harney.
They were among the categories of workers excluded from the permit scheme because it was considered that sufficient labour was available from within the European Economic Area (EEA).
I need assistance and I hope that one of you on this board or someone you know can help me. I am involved in a court case in Los Angeles, California, which requires information about GAMA. Specifically, I need an Official Letter about the amounts and methods for paying dividends to share holders of the company GAMA. This letter needs to be from someone who is somehow involved in the process (ideally someone in the finance department) or from someone who works for GAMA and understands this process and are themselves a shareholder.
I am willing to pay money for this letter. If you or someone you know is able and willing to help me with this, I would sincerely appreciate it.
Very sincerely,
Jeff Sinclair