Blackrock Coffee Houses

by toneore Sun Jun 05, 2005 19:11 toneore at eircom dot net

Roll on the introduction of Starbucks in Ireland.

by Stevie Mon Jun 06, 2005 05:05

Starbucks don´t just arrive, they invade. Dublin city centre will suddenly find itself swamped with a dozen or so stores exclusively in the busy commercial areas. Minimum price for a "tall" cap in UK is £1.79. (You convert.) True, they serve a reliably bland beverage with unscalded milk, but the musak and the super-low or super-high seating won't invite you to stay, and the anodine soullessness of the places does something to your innards. The worst thing is the swamping. Local independents offering better coffee and reasonable prices, each with their own charm, struggle to compete. Pretty soon, your choice will be between Starbucks and Starbucks. Don't do it. As for Black Rock, I don't know, I think they only go near wealthy places. Sounds like it isn't the most affluent part of town. Too bad. Enjoy what you have. Keep looking.

by Deirdre Clancy - Coffee Appreciation Society Tue Jun 07, 2005 03:54

I'm not too keen on Starbucks coming in and pushing out the smaller coffee shops, but in a way Dublin deserves this. Cork city centre has a good selection of places to go in the evening if you feel like a coffee and a quiet chat. Most Dublin coffee shops, apart from one or two that are always crowded or playing loud and irritating music, are closed by 5.30. This is a city of philistines when it comes to the ability to obtain good coffee in the evening.

After picketing the Israeli embassy on Saturday after doing the march, I decided to go for a coffee break. The only coffee shop in the vicinity was Insomnia in Ballsbridge, which informed me that it was just about to close and would only do takeaway. This was 5pm in the afternoon. Am I alone in thinking it is reasonable to assume that a cafe that calls itself Insomnia would stay open later than 5pm?

I have a good book on the history of coffee, which among other things points out the importance of coffee houses as meeting places in the genesis of several important revolutionary movements. Maybe the lack of decent venues in Dublin is the reason we're all so politically stagnant at the moment...

by toneore Tue Jun 07, 2005 04:11 toneore at eircom dot net

Starbucks is brilliant - it's a quality product, tastes the same everywhere, and you can use the same terminology worldwide - I ordered a Venti Drip in London a while ago, the same way I ordered it in Seattle and San Francisco. A tribute to globalization.

I heard that Microsoft in Sandyford run a concessions stand for Starbucks - maybe a chain will arrive sooner than we think. Wouldn't that be great.

It's true that they drive other shops out of business - but what's wrong with that - competition helps keep prices down and quality up. Most of the mom and pop operations I've been in are overpriced and the coffee is dismal. In San Francisco, we have Pete's, Tully's, Cupa Joes and other chains, as well as Starbucks and there are tons of individual operations. And San Francisco is smaller than Dublin. Starbucks also does a lot of good work by supporting third-world, fair trade, coffee growers.

Tell you what - McDowell is wasting his time with his "glass of beer and croissant" approach to eliminating binge drinking. Won't work. But a chain of Starbucks open all night would... Add Wi-Fi, some cute Latvian barristas, and there you go... problem solved.

by Stevie Tue Jun 07, 2005 09:16

"competition helps keep prices down and quality up"

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Where to begin. Well, how about, the facts. 1.79UKP for the smallest cafeinated beverage in the house ain´t cheap. A locally owned city centre competitor charges 1.25. How does this happen. Why doesn´t everyone flock to the cheaper and better competitor. It´s the power of the brand. Nike pay about 50 pence to make a pair of shoes. They spend about $30bn per anum to market the brand. Where is the competition selling shoes at 50 pence plus markup. Well, people are dumb and they buy the brand, not the shoes. So mere shoe sellers go out of business. Same thing. Starbucks markets its brand by having 13 stores in selected city centre locations. People are stupid. So they buy Starbucks. Everybody else goes out of business. Prices go UP not DOWN. Maybe you need a hole drilled in your head.

You´re genteel theory of market economics is of course well understood. With strong caveats it was originally proposed by Adam Smith in his seminal "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations", 1776. But even he conceded that complete market freedom would quickly produce monopolies and hence refute itself.

As for San Francisco, this is a case in point of exactly what happens when you don´t let the corporations run all over you. Zoning regulations prevent that from happening and local pressure groups preserve the identity of neighbourhoods and succeed in persuading the city to prevent unrelenting corporate swamping. That´s why you have such wonderful cafés in Little Italy, for example. They are a little pricey, but man, they serve the real beverage. None of these kinds of protections exist this side of the Atlantic. I don´t know why not, but they just don´t. You guys have some wonderful cafés far cheaper than Starbucks. I´m not talking about the other chains, I´m talking about local independents. There are loads of them, all with their own unique character. And think of all the wonderful cafés across the Bay in Berkeley. That´s café culture like it ought to be. There´s nothing like that on either of our two little Island´s this side of the pond.

The reason café culture is so much more developed in the States probably goes back to the Boston Tea Party, 1773. Ever since then, tea was distinctly déclassé. Coffee became cool. For the most part, we´re still stuck with the same tea you guys so wisely dumped in the harbour.

Oops. Sorry for going on. I´ll stop now.

by jimmy Tue Jun 07, 2005 09:51

You southsiders deserve to pay through your nose for your silly "lattés" and whatever else.

by Deirdre Clancy Tue Jun 07, 2005 13:01

Just for the record, Jimmy, you don't have to be a southsider to appreciate good coffee. I was born on the northside, went to school in various places on the northside, and only lived in the southside for a brief few years because it was close to work (although, it wasn't a bad place to live, unbelievably). I now live on the northside again, and am proud and happy to be a northsider.

I don't think these issues are exclusive to the southside. They're basic questions to do with value for money, taste, consumer's rights in the face of globalisation and homogenisation of the market. They may be a bit of a diversion from the some of the more pressing problems of the world, but we're all entitled to a bit of light relief. Therefore, Jimmy, if you don't like what's on the thread, I suggest you just stay away from it. That might be the best solution.

by Pat Tue Jun 07, 2005 13:25

...or didn't you know?

One is in DCU, and the other is in the Bank of Ireland Head Office canteen on Baggot Street. Both are official Starbuck's outlets selling Starbuck's coffee. And it is reeeeal nice.

by hs - sp Tue Jun 07, 2005 15:26

westland row, beside pearse street station, best italian coffee in dublin by far. Proper southern style espresso, none of the northern nonsense. highly recommended

by starfucker Tue Jun 07, 2005 15:39 - -

i'm sorry to hear about about starbucks arriving, but am only surprised it's taken this long. there has to be some alternative to pub culture here, and if no one else is going to bring it then let them.

i organized protests against sb's in the states while living there, and was disgusted to see one on every block in some cities - but they serve good coffee (it's true), even if pricey, and good benefits to their employees. we were protesting for them to include fair-trade and organic selections, and they responded quite well.

i would much prefer to see an irish chain open up (cafe society?!) instead of them and will support one fully when they do.

listen, dublin may as well be considered on the east coast of the states at this point, this doesn't change anything. we're adopting any bit of culture america throws at us, we may as well drink some decent coffee on the trip down. we're going to have to feed our fat kids something cafinated to motivate them away from the xbox or mtv.

failte.

(another northsider)

by Gaz - -(A)- Tue Jun 07, 2005 15:46

red Ink in temple bar have packets of Zapatista coffee for sale for €4.75 i think. Buy a flask anyway...its cheaper than €2 for a plastic cup of crap.

by Paul - adrift in Asia Tue Jun 07, 2005 19:11

"As for Black Rock, I don't know, I think they only go near wealthy places. Sounds like it isn't the most affluent part of town." LOL

Yep, Blackrock, the very definition of poverty. Arf!

Fascinating discussion, though I'm waiting for some programmed left sectarian to come on and shout at people for not discussing more important things. Out here in Taiwan, you're grateful if your coffee doesn't have lumps of jelly in it! Is made up for by the vast variety of tea, though.

Tsao An
Paul

by Pol Tue Jun 07, 2005 19:31

Why does the coffe have lumps of jelly in it?
Anyway, if the cafes are crap and you have nowt to look forward to but Starbuck's cloned Seattled lifestyle pods, why don't you just make your own coffee at home? What's the attraction in tettering down the street with a paper beaker full of froth? For all the cobblers spouted about Italian coffee, I have never, in all my time in Italy, seen Italians drink anything flavoured with cinnamon, orange, chocolate or nutmeg. Nor have I seen Italian cafes clog up the dusty flagstones with garden furniture and cloth screens behind which caffiene-crazed yuppies suck at their chippa-chocca-half-caf-treble-mocha-chicca-chinos. And most of the crap cafes here are chain-store affairs anyway, they're just not as big as Starbucks. And if the 'mom and pop' cafes are expensive, at least they tend to give you the warm, smug glow of pleasure in knowing that at least your not sucking the froth out of Starbucks rich hole. So instead of yapping like coffee-sodden nervous wrecks because Blackrock is dull and its cafes cheap and nasty, save up and buy a mocha and make your own coffee in the morning. And in the evening. And in lunch time, have something healthy to drink.

by Paul - adrift in Asia Tue Jun 07, 2005 20:02

God only knows why, Pol! The Taiwanese have an ant-like fondness for sugar. The most popular drink among the children I teach is Jen Ju Nai Cha or bubble tea, which is milk tea, laced with sugar, and then half the cup is filled with bubbles of gelatin. Here's a picture....

http://www.asiafoods.com/asiaf/images/bt_green_tea.JPG

I bought what looked like a French bread one day to eat with some soup, and cut it open to find a layer of marzipan inside!! Still, that's what you get for buying Western food in a Chinese society. Their own food is absolutely delicious though - try getting a huge plate of shrimp, noodles, vegetables and a couple of beers for three quid in Dublin!

by toneore Tue Jun 07, 2005 22:42

I have to say I agree - Italian coffee really is a woeful mouthful of piss. Dishwater, at best, if you want froth on it.

Starbucks rocks - they're also one of the best hourly payers in San Francisco.

The case of "Little Italy" as you call it in San Francisco - or North Beach to give it a correct location, is a case of restrictive practices in action. AS a result there, these Italian cafes serve overpriced braking fluid in little cups to tourists. The campaigns against Starbucks in San Francisco are not an expression of the will of the people - but of other merchants. Amazing that the people who campaigned in North Beach would do nothing to shut down the sex shops and strip joints, isn't it? But open a Stabucks - mama mia, there goes the profits.

1.75 is not expensive. How much is a pint of Guinness?

by toneore Tue Jun 07, 2005 22:49 toneore at eircom dot net

Maybe it's the one in Cork? Hardly surprising there's no coffee. It's all BArry's tea down there.

by craven Wed Jun 08, 2005 02:11

starbucks pay relatively well and also provide bennies to their workers. Now if you can find me a cafe in dublin that pays maternity leave ill eat my shoe while im drinking the shit they serve as coffee. im no fan of the corporate chains but peoples objections to starbucks are lacking in any critical usefulness. Dont tell me that you want to spend the next 30 years finding yourself in small irish towns where it is impossible to get a cup of coffee that doesnt make you want to puke. if people cant make or are too stingy to buy decent coffee they shoud not be in the cafe business. Anyone who has ever found themselves between the coasts in the US will understand that until starbucks came along noone in these places had ever had a decent coffee.

i was reminded of the absolute insincerity of the irish bourgeoisie listening to and reading the lamentations over the passing of bewleys. now that place had possibly the worst coffee outside chinatown. really quite disgusting slop one would not expect to be served in prison. No wonder the place went out of business. what sort of world famous cafe has never got the cafe bit right.

but at least bewleys, until relatively recently, had a policy of employing and serving travellers. i cant say the same for any of the contemporary watery coffee holes that spread their ghostly yuppie clientelle onto the footpaths. Nor indeed would the modern dublin slop drinker enjoy all the more their overpriced cup for it being handed to them by an Irish traveller or a roma for that matter.

the absence of starbucks in dublin is the one thing that reminds me im not in america, everything else reinforces the view that its just the same.

by toneore Wed Jun 08, 2005 07:58 toneore at eircom dot net

Bewley's coffee was, and is, crap. Disgusting, overpriced. You'd think it was Stonehenge that closed in Grafton Street, not Bewleys... basically, it was crap since Campbell's took over. If you were still going to Bewleys in the 1990's, you'd really not copped on.

by hs - sp Wed Jun 08, 2005 17:21

italian cofee is wonderful, because they don't put any of that nonsense into it. I spent 3 years living there and I promise you, mocha or all the other inventions don't exist. Just a plain small shot that wakes you up. A hit even. And toneore, go to cafe di napoli have an expresso there and then tell me eye tie coffee is dishwater! I've never tried starbucks, but i tried some sort of chain place in an airport in hueston. The coffee was fine, only problem was they used this fake sort of plasticy foam stuff instead of milk. course you can get lavazza and other coffees in dunnes now so you don't have to go to a cafe any more anyway, in fact i'm off for one now, ciao
compani!

(ps one intresting fact, the yuppies and ol' ones in italy drink tea the way ours drink cappaciono, kinda funny to see)

by Yoda's Ma Wed Jun 08, 2005 21:21

Starbuck's coffee tastes like shite. It's just another American fast food like Big Macs. Anyone who likes it has no tastebuds.
Selah!

by toneore Mon Jun 13, 2005 03:42

McDowell's plans are on the rocks. Pity he never saw the light of Starbucks. That stuff rocks and would solve a lot of the binge drinking problems...

by Michael H Mon Mar 06, 2006 04:15

There are some good coffee places in Balckrock. Definitely ENCORE is the best with the cafe in Roches a good second. Cafe Java has to be the worst coffee I ever had. Not too fond of Starbucks.....tried it in Dundrum three times so far thinkin that maybe they had a bad day the first two times but, no, its quite bland and I wont be trying it a fourth time. The worst problem is overly boiled milk, it makes even the best coffee taste pretty bad.

by Randy Mon Nov 20, 2006 13:24

I happen to *love* the coffee in Cafe Java, Blackrock. It's just about my favourite cup of joe in all of Ireland. The food is just okay (wish they had more vegetarian options), but the service is good.

Best of all, they are one of the few places in the country that offers *genuinely free* WiFi access to their customers. None of this Bitbuzz crap having to use cards and login and only getting 30 minutes at a time. There, you just crack open your laptop and you're off-and-running for as long as you like. They don't bug you if you stay a long time either, as long as it's not too busy.