SIPTU protest against Irish Ferries outsourcing draws thousands

by Seamus Fri Nov 04, 2005 08:43

Surprised that Siptu know how to organise a protest at this point in time. Are they not afraid of offending big buddy Bertie? What about their neutring, sorry I mean partnership deal with him?

Hmmm, about time time Siptu started representing workers as they are supposed to. Maybe this will bethe end of the rediculous "partnershp" deal, heres hoping.

by Pat O'Reilly Fri Nov 04, 2005 14:42 pat.reilly at aol dot com Monaghan, Eire

It is an utter disgrace that Irish Ferries is allowed to sack all the Irish workers in order to take on cheap foreign workers.

Is this equality for Irish citizens?

In Germany, there is a system in place called 'protection against foreign workers' where there is a control in place to allow existing people to remain in their jobs without the threat of being replaced by cheaper workers from abroad.

If only Ireland would implement a similar law, then maybe the Irish workers wouldn't be put out of work. There needs to be a control to enable Irish workers to remain in their jobs without the fear of loosing them to cheaper workers.

by Mago Fri Nov 04, 2005 15:21

Could it possibly be because the Irish Government deny them the same rights as Irish (or British) people?
Is SIPTU, or anyone else, interested in a deeper analysis? or is it just pictures and marchs good enough?
"People from abroad" are forced to take low wages, as their social rights are unprotected.
Is this equality for Irish citizens? No, their Government are shooting them on their own feet.

by Duine Fri Nov 04, 2005 15:54

Nach fiú léirsiú in éadán Ryanair, leis? Bíonn oibrithe acu ar fud na hEorpa nach Éireannaigh iad, nach bhfaigheann pá na hÉireann, bíonn orthu díol as a dtraeneáil fhéin, a gcuid éide, a gcuid pinn is a gcuid leictreachais don a bhfóin phóca.
Dúshaothrú?

by Curious Fri Nov 04, 2005 16:10

Why not provide a translation into English? The vast majority of readers here have no idea what you are on about.

by Duine Fri Nov 04, 2005 16:31

Níl neart agam ar dhaoine nach dtuigeann Gaeilge. B'fhéidir go niarraidh tú ar Éireannach teanga a dhéanamh duit?

by linguist Fri Nov 04, 2005 16:32

Not all the meaning. But I would be very surprised if the majority of the readership could not recognise verbs and nouns simple little expressions, even the telling words "na hEorpa", "na hÉireann". Quite a few may possibly be able to decline "orthu".
So - the majority do have a clue or an idea, but possibly many can't understand the whole sentances. Possibly if you are Irish this means that at some formative part of your life :- "you weren't really paying attention".

by John Fri Nov 04, 2005 17:05

Pat O'Reilly says "In Germany, there is a system in place called 'protection against foreign workers' where there is a control in place to allow existing people to remain in their jobs without the threat of being replaced by cheaper workers from abroad. If only Ireland would implement a similar law, then maybe the Irish workers wouldn't be put out of work. There needs to be a control to enable Irish workers to remain in their jobs without the fear of loosing them to cheaper workers.". But you ignore the fact that when laws similar to Germany's are enacted companies don't invest in that country. Hence hardly any new jobs have been created in germany in the past decade, compared with hundreds of thousands in Ireland. The result is that in Germany today the unemployment rate is 11 per cent and in Ireland its 4 per cent. Please tell us which you consider preferable: 11 per cent unemployment or 4 per cent unemployment.

by maybe Fri Nov 04, 2005 17:13

'protection _for_ foreign workers

by me - personal capacity Fri Nov 04, 2005 17:18

Why isn't it called 'protection against filthy stingy mulinationals' instead of 'protection against foreign workers'.
What Ireland really needs is lots of foreign workers in all the available jobs, not badly underpaid foreign workers in jobs Irish people are already doing.

by Duine Fri Nov 04, 2005 17:21

Seo moladh do SIPTU:
Dul i mbun ceangal le ceardchumainn ó thíortha na noibrithe nua. Seo saol idirnáisiúnta agus tá call ar throid ar gach éadán!!!!!

by Curious Fri Nov 04, 2005 17:21

Like so many others I learned to hate Irish because of the way it was "taught" at school.

by DV8 Fri Nov 04, 2005 17:21

Small Firms Association chairperson Angela Kennedy was speaking today at their annual dinner and she stated that the EU must urgently open up the services market to member states. Guess who the guest of honour was? The one and only Charlie McCreevy. Much to his delight (I presume) she said Ireland’s amazing economic success is not only the result of pursuing the right economic policies, but is also due to Ireland's successful exploitation of international markets. She went on to say:
"Irish services companies need action to improve the functioning of the internal market and ensure the free circulation of goods, capital, people and in particular, services."
"There can no longer be any doubt that open markets spur competition and innovation. These are exactly what we need to foster growth and jobs. Ireland is not afraid of competition and neither should Europe be."

The race to the bottom is well and truly on folks.

by Padraig Sat Nov 05, 2005 00:01 Eire

(Tuigim le teanga duchais)

Whether you like Irish or not, its a part of our culture and heritage and it would be wrong to forget about it since this is Ireland afterall..... Surely Irish speakers have rights too?

I actually understand what Duine is saying so there's more than one here. Hope this satisfies your question...

Slan go foil.

by Des Derwin Sat Nov 05, 2005 00:12

Great news for me and my fellow workers (basic rate €3.90 an hour) whose work has gone to Eastern Europe - sent there by the multinationals followed by our own management. The factory site will soon be - developed by builders. It's your liberal dream John. Our nightmare.

Those who have contributed to this thread saying, basically, right on - but what about social partnership (about the unions' great showing yesterday) might be interested in the meeting tomorrow of the Trade Union Activists Forum on 'Organising against a new partnership deal' at the ATGWU Hall, Middle Abbey Street, Dublin, at two.

Also delegates to the Dublin Council of Trade Unions (and others) will be interested in a Big Debate (if the busy debaters turn up!) on social partnership at Liberty Hall next Tuesday at eight. Jack O'Connor (SIPTU) and Mick O'Reilly (ATGWU) debate "Can National Partnership deals meet the demands and aspirations of the Trade Union Movement?". Chaired (with complete neutrality!) by yours truely.

by Padraig Sat Nov 05, 2005 00:18 Eire

I sympathise with those poor Irish workers that have been thrown out of their jobs.

They are now left without a livleihood and may not even be able to find future work.

It's not like Irish people to throw their very own fellow people out of their jobs in this way.

Unfortunately, there is a certain discrimination against some Irish people who go and look for jobs off their very own people in the construction industry since these jobs are usually packed with eastern european workers who are willing to work for less.

I don't know what the future would hold in a case like this but it appears that many Irish job seekers will find it difficult to find future work in certain jobs unless they agree to work for the likes of €1 an hour.

by arthur Sat Nov 05, 2005 02:22

Trying to stop the slide to the bottom or oblivion is akin to trying to stop the tide with a pitchfork.Change and new technology must be slavishly adhered to as the Multinationals are now in firm control and are running the show .The exponental development in techonology is now accelerating,and if we human units ,that have been described in personell terms as "human resources"dont do something about measuring a unit of production against a unit of labour,or human effort we may not be relevant to the future.We have only to read the NI farming press "Farm Week"page 18 "Cows that will milk themselves"to se what's coming.Then there is a supercomputer in Livermore uni USA that can perform 250 trillion calculations a second.The singularity is near and unless there is a general awakening and support for something different that is sustainable it could be a verry unplesant future.The Ferries crewing issue is disgracefull and like other problems in the world that are looming, cannot be successfuly adressed without total public support. Any ideas how this might be achieved,

by Padraig Sat Nov 05, 2005 14:33 Eire

Hi Arthur,
Yes, there is a way to inform the public about this. Firstly, leaflets distributed on the windscreens of cars is one way. However, more protests in the heart of Dublin will really catch the peoples attention because the media like RTE will broadcast it to the entire population of Eire. Perhaps, a person who could be the leader the Irish workers going on strike could be elected-someone that will have a strong voice that can rally opinion on their side. Posters or signs on the roadsides would also be of some help. I sincerely hope my advice is helpful to you.

Slan.

by Paul Kinsella - CPSU Activist And An Post Worker (Strictly Personal Capacity!)! Sat Nov 05, 2005 19:35 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 0851478100

Well done to everyone who participated in the Irish Ferries Protest, Organised by SIPTU, and the International Transport Workers' Federation (ITF), Representing 624 unions, Who, Represent 4,500,000 transport workers in 142 countries, and supported by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU), the Dublin Council of Trade Unions (DCTU), and Apart from SIPTU and the Seamen's Union of Ireland (SUI), including 15 of the Next Largest Unions, Including the Amalgamated Transport & General Workers Union (ATGWU), IMPACT, the Independent Workers Union (IWU, and the Civil Public & Services Union (CPSU). A crowd of, varying from 5,000 Workers up to 10,000 Workers (according to the Gardaí! Who usually dramatically underestimate numbers on Protests!) Marched from the SIPTU Head Office to the Dáil to show their opposition to what Irish Ferries are trying to do, in getting rid of their existing workers, and replacing them with cheap slave-labour from Eastern Europe, and to say, "Enough Is Enough!" And to stop other employers, both in the public and private sector from following Irish Ferries' lead, as they surely will, if Irish Ferries are allowed to get away with this. And also, to put pressure on this Government to stop this "race to the bottom." The turnout was very good, at least twice as big as the last mobilisation of Workers, the Irish Glass Bottles (IGB) Protest in October 2002, over 3 years ago was, considering, (A), Unlike the Irish Glass Bottles (IGB) Protest of 3 years ago, it was called a very short notice (Less than 2 weeks, Compared to the Irish Glass Bottles Protest of October 2002, which was organised more than a month (4Weeks) in advance), (B), The weather was very poor (Almost non-stop driving rain with a strong cold Gale Force Wind), and, (C), Unlike the Irish Glass Bottles Protest, it was not a work stoppage! So, you can just imagine how many people Will turn up for the Next Protest about outsourcing labour, because, as Jack O'Connor, General President of SIPTU, said at the to the Thousands of Workers on the Rally yesterday "not to hang up your walking boots yet, because we'll be doing a lot of walking this winter to stop greedy employers from destroying decent, unionised jobs". I know the Unions were fearful after the debacle of the Irish Glass Bottles Protest in 2002, when fewer than 10,000 Workers came out for what was supposed to be a Half-Day Nationwide Work Stoppage, of calling for a nationwide work stoppage, but I know from talking to lots of workers, not just in An Post, where I work, but in other places like Dublin Bus, the Civil Service, Pubs, Supermarkets and Taxi Drivers, that they Will Support a Work Stoppage” to stop greedy employers from destroying decent, unionised jobs", once the Unions declare Official Work Stoppages over this, Which they Will, such is the depth of anger among Workers, and the General Public, even among many who are non-unionised at the moment, over their and Our future Pay, Working Conditions And Livelihoods! This, if not stopped now will gravely effect everyone from the Top Journalists in the land right down to the Part-Time Casual Worker! In others words, us, the ordinary man and women in the street. As Jack O'Connor says it looks like we’ll be doing a lot of Marching this Winter because this extremely right-wing conservative Fianna Fáil/Progressive Democrat Coalition Government is so wedded to their neo-liberalist policies of pushing business profits at the expense of Workers’ Living Conditions, Livelihoods and Pay, that they won’t act until they're forced to, by a Series of Mass Protests and Work Stoppages. Also, they're only cogs in the wheel of the increasingly neo-liberal European Union (EU), who are the ones who introduced this Bolkenstein Directive, which dictates that a Workers’ Pay and Terms And Conditions are governed, not by the country that they work in, but by the country that they were born in, which means that Workers coming from Eastern European countries, such as Poland and Latvia, will only be paid the wage rates in those countries, which are as low as €3 Per Hour! This government are wholehearted, enthusiastic supporters of this EU Dictate/Directive. That’s why it’s great to see Solidarity, not just among Different Groups of Workers and Unions in Ireland, but Also Internationally! So, it’s great that the International Transport Workers' Federation (ITF), representing 624 unions, Who, Represent 4,500,000 transport workers in 142 countries, have thrown their full weight behind this campaign. Unity Is Strength! Solidarity! As I say, this issue directly concerns, and if it’s not stopped, will horrendously effect, the ordinary man and women on the street.

by Patrick McDowell Sun Nov 06, 2005 18:37 patrickmcdowell at eircom dot net Corcaigh.

AS IRISH CITIZENS, WE DESERVE BETTER.

How can Irish Ferries sack all of its Irish employees just to take on other non-national workers who will work for less? I have worked with Irsh Ferries since 1991 and I can see the so called 'modern' approach to everything within the workplace nowadays: Sack all of the existing Irish workers and take on non-national workers that will work for €3.00 an hour... What kind of equality is this?

I have previously had to train some new non-national workers on board the Ferry and found it very difficult to do so because of their lack of fluency in English.

I don't know what the future will hold if every person in Ireland is thrown out of their jobs just because they won't work for anything less than a decent wage. There needs to be a legislation implemented to help prevent people like us from loosing our jobs.

by John Connor - Fine Gael Sun Nov 06, 2005 18:44 john124 at indigo dot ie Drogheda, Co Louth

Too true, Patrick.

Its a very difficult situation but I guess it all depends on what kind of action is taken by both the government and the people on the ground to help prevent this kind of thing in the future. We need to organise more protests to highlight our grievances. Well done Bertie, thanks for allowing us to be thrown out of our workplacements...........

by Mago Sun Nov 06, 2005 19:20

I truly sympathise with this cause. Nevertheless, this feels a bit like out of perspective.

Why would an Irish worker not accept to work for 3 an hour.
Because they have social security to cover them when they happen not to have a decent job.
Who is paying for this?
Everyone, including newly arrived foreign workers.
However, this foreigners are denied social welfare. Therefore, they would have to accept low wages if they find nothing better.
Nobody seems to care about inequality (this is happening for 1+1/2 years already), until the colateral damage of this unfair legislation indirectly affects Irish nationals.

Please, if anyone thinks I am the one who is missing the point here, or needs some extra information, I'd appreciate if you let me know it. And this could be the case. Otherwise, part of the points I'm getting here are sounding a bit hypocritical to me.

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=72733

by Patrick McDowell Mon Nov 07, 2005 00:33 Corcaigh.

Mago,
How would you like it if you were thrown out of your job unfairly???

We have been working here for our many years and then these newly arrived foreign workers come and blackmail our bosses into getting work on the basis of cheap labour whilst we tolerate them putting us out of work. The problem isn't as straight forward.The fact that Irish Ferries exit Irish territorial waters, then the law doesn't apply to them for a FAIR wage. Foreigners work for less because they allow themselves to be exploited. Unless of course, if they really wanted to earn a decent wage, then they would request to do so... Since these Eastern European countries joined the E.U, they are entitled to work for the minimum wage UNDER E.U LAW.

Please stick to the point here(The Irish Ferries issue). I don't wish to go into other issues like immigration or anything else.

by Patrick McDowell Mon Nov 07, 2005 00:40 Corcaigh.

Mago,
If the points here are sounding hypocritical to you, then you need to educate yourself and step into our shoes and see what it feels like to loose your job. Whether you understand this or not, there can be no justification for a company like Irish Ferries sacking all the Iirsh workers in return for cheap labour from other countries- it should be banned altogether.

by Mago Mon Nov 07, 2005 15:12

I am not being able to explain it properly.
I’m not criticising your motives, or the reasons for this march. I agree, it is unfair: people working under minimum wages, people being sacked, whether they were from this country or the other.
I’m trying to encourage you to make a further self-reflection.
SIPTU original motto includes: "Exploiting Vulnerable Migrant Workers".
As far as I can see it: this little bit of hypocrisy starts with SIPTU’s indignation, at this point in time, organising a march, only reacting with a public protest about inequality and injustice when the unfairness if for Irish people too.
The derivative approach of some people:
"Is this equality for Irish citizens?"
"protection against foreign workers"
"loosing our jobs to cheaper workers"
"Foreigners work for less because they allow themselves to be exploited"

Patrick McDowell,
How would you like it if you had no social security after you are sacked because you have certain nationality or origin? (and that is silenced behind claims of equality if you are European citizen).

by Patrick McDowell Mon Nov 07, 2005 15:29 Eire

Mago,
For the last time, ALL E.U citizens who work in E.U states like Ireland are entitled to the MINIMUM WAGE. Anyway, if I went to a restaurant in Dublin owned by Polish people and asked them for a job, I more than likely wouldn't get one. Why? because they only employ their own. I have witnessed this. If we were to continue with your approach, then the whole people of Ireland would be put out of work and then there would be uproar. The trouble is that we allow our own people to be treated as second class citizens by allowing them to be thrown out of work... Really and truely, I think that you are being very sinister in critising our position when you should be criticising those that are putting us out of work. Somehow, I doubt this kind of situation would be allowed to happen if this were in Poland.

by Reader Mon Nov 07, 2005 16:43

Gardaí and the Department of the Marine are investigating the circumstances under which 13 eastern Europeans had to be rescued from an island off Skerries in north county Dublin at the weekend.
The rescue happened at around 10pm on Saturday night after the coastguard received a call from a member of the public.
It is believed that the 13, thought to be mostly Latvian, were on the island working as periwinkle pickers.
Rescuers were led to believe that the group were put on the island by boat earlier in the day by their employer.
The island, known as Colt Island, is an uninhabited exposed landmass a quarter of a mile off the town of Skerries.
Having completed their work they were due to be picked up again later that evening.
However, it is believed they received a phone call on Saturday evening saying that the boat which was due to pick them up was experiencing engine trouble and that they would have to stay on the island for the night.
Rescuers believe that one of the stranded party managed to get a message to a friend on the mainland who subsequently raised the alarm.
The RNLI Lifeboat from Skerries was launched and went to the island.
There it found the group huddled around a small camp fire.
It is understood they were not wearing any kind of protective clothing.
The group were then brought ashore.
Gardaí in Skerries have launched an investigation into the matter.
They are trying to establish who was responsible for putting this group onto the island and the circumstances under which they were left there.
Separately, the Dept of the Marine say they are enquiring into whether the boat owner was licensed to be carrying out such work.

by Mago Mon Nov 07, 2005 17:01

Who are the first class citizens in this? People working for 3€/hour with reduced social entitlements?

Nobody should work for such little money. We agree.

I just tried to say something else.

Blaming foreign workers doesn't sound entirely right. If they take a badly paid job, they obviously have no better option than extreme poverty. It would be ideal if we step into their shoes too and try to avoid our anger at them.

I criticise those putting you out of work, especially the legislation that permits that. At the end of the day, Irish Ferries exploit workers if they are allowed to.
I don't follow how my approach would lead to that uproar.

Above all, my solidarity with unfairly dismissed people.

by Marie Byrne Mon Nov 07, 2005 20:54

It is appalling what is happening to the Irish Ferries workers. And more appalling is that the Irish Ferries management have no insight and do not think there is anything wrong with what they are doing. The government also doesn’t seem to see anything wrong either because if they did they would take action to stop this happening. The government is ultimately responsible for this and lay the groundwork by not putting a time delay or control on the new EU entrants coming into Ireland just like the rest of the smarter EU countries. I do recall at the time when we were voting on the last EU treaty for a second time (because we had all voted No the first time) that we were told that none or only a small number would be interested in coming to Ireland. So far this year alone we have been told that 100000 have come to Ireland and obtained jobs. Now all 200 million can come to Ireland if they wish. The government has had plenty of time to do something about the Irish Ferries issue but won’t because obviously their philosophy must be closely aligned with Irish Ferries. I think the government has lost the plot and seem to have forgotten that it’s the Irish people that they are supposed to be serving and who put them there in the first place.

If this pattern continues and Irish workers continue to be sneakily replaced by cheaper non Irish nationals and there is a huge haemorrhage of Irish workers loosing their jobs, it will not be the issues of poor hospital management, bad road and transport infrastructure, child care, housing, etc. that will swiftly put them out of government but a very angry unemployed Irish workforce.

by Mago Mon Nov 07, 2005 23:03

I can understand how this easily becomes a patriotic thing. It would happen in any other country.
However, if we assimilate, both for good and for bad, that we joined the EU, we could drop the term Irish (or wherever the case might be) more often; like, say a French person wouldn't be able to opt to an Irish Ferries job either, or could lose their job on cheaper labour.

Although a French person by the way, would have to move out this country if they found nothing else.

by tootrue Tue Nov 08, 2005 06:34

Mago is dead right. Its the bosses that exploiting the system not the workers, right paddy?

Is what Irish Ferries proposed to pay the new workers even minimun wage in any EU country or are the conditions even worse, based on non-standards of the deflagged country?

by Dave Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:36

The reason Irish Ferries are allowed do this is because the ships (generally) are registered in Bermuda. This means they are subject to Bermudan employment laws... low pay etc.

However Irish Ferries still gets beneficial tax treatment by the Irish government!

That's a real double standard. They are getting the benefits of being irish without paying their due.

by ger Tue Nov 08, 2005 18:03

one of the ships is registered in the bahamas. the rest are irish registered. not for long though.

by Patrick McDowell Tue Nov 08, 2005 21:51

What Mago is saying is absolute rubbish. He/she probably isn't effected by this decision in the slightest way.. Somehow, I don't think that he/she even cares about his/her very own fellow people by the way he/she casually throws out such comments like these blaming the Irish workers for this problem.....

I perfectly agree with Marie Byrne as the problem of Irish workers loosing their jobs in Ireland is becoming more obvious. This kind of problem would not be tolerated in the slightest way if this was in another country like France or Spain.

I just hope that Irish workers here wake up and unite to fight the problem of loosing their jobs just for the sake of 1-2 euro less an hour.

by R. Isible Tue Nov 08, 2005 22:02

It's absolutely clear that Mago blames the employers for the problem.

It's also pretty damn obvious that what you're interested in is sowing "us versus them" splits in the labour force that works in "Irish" companies.

As long as companies operating in Ireland are allowed to pay workers wages below an acceptable minimum then that's what we're going to see.

Take away the ability of companies to exploit their workers and then there's no incentive to outsource.

In case you haven't noticed it most of the people working on these (soon to be foreign registered) ships will probably not even be living in Ireland.

A large number of the employers won't even be "Irish" companies in any meaningful sense.

by Mago Merlin Wed Nov 09, 2005 15:03

I blame Irish Ferries on this one, and before that, Government's responsibility. In some way, I tried to force something else on the side, about double standards, ...

Do me a favour and picture yourself in a foreign country as an undermined migrant worker (were yous not in that position at the time?) and swap the words Irish and non-nationals and read all the posts again (especially yours) and let me know how you felt after that.

by Marcin Wed Nov 09, 2005 20:21

Mago, Just to take you up on your point with regard to social security. Not every Irish person automatically receives a social welfare payment when they become unemployed. You only receive social welfare when you are entitled to it. You must have quite a number of stamps in order to become eligible for unemployment benefit. So if Irish people have only worked for a short period of time they too will not receive a social welfare payment also. If you are eligible for benefit you only receive a social welfare payment for 15 months and after that it is stopped. You can then apply for employment assistance which is means tested. You will only get employment assistance if you have absolutely no income.

I worked for almost 15 years and was made redundant 3 years ago. I got unemployment benefit for 15 months and have not received any social welfare payments for 2 years because I am not eligible. I am also highly qualified and have not been able to get work. and yet we are told there are so many jobs that we need to import lots of labour. I wonder why I can't get a job?

by Mago Thu Nov 10, 2005 14:20

And other non-contributory payments.
www.welfare.ie/publications/sw108.html

You are right. They’re paid to you if you have no income (i.e. no jobs, distribution/dividends, profit rents). I take your points about the situation for middle-class people (any nationality) and that’s another day’s work. Thank you for that nuance. I understand that position and Patrick’s anger and displacement to the wrong people.

I was presuming cases of people with limited capital (up to €20,000 you get full entitlement),
Where if you are an Irish or British worker, you get the assistance,
Whereas if you are not, the burden is on you to prove a close link to Ireland or the UK (nearly equals to being Irish or British).
Nevertheless, being Irish or British, you are entitled to the same Gov.’s services in other EU countries.

We can argue about transitory control rules on newly accession-ed poorer countries, but not for old EU countries that used to be considered as Irish citizens, and not due to the hypocrisy of “try to look we apply rules equally”.
Where is the march about this? Any articles?
Where are the posts claiming equality for European citizens?

by Mago Thu Nov 10, 2005 15:19

True. Money doesn't grow on its own. It is the workers living here (including latvians) making the money, that the government administers, not always right.

by Mago Thu Nov 10, 2005 17:30

I see the problem for Ireland about different social welfare systems. This is by and large more generous than the other European countries, and could be too tempting for far poorer countries. This European project went into a cul-de-sack trying to integrate its physical expansion with social equality.

I'm interested in your answering some questions about the fairness or consistency of the proposed and implemented solution. Let me get back to you after work.

by Patrick McDowell Thu Nov 10, 2005 17:38

Mago,

Well, ok then.
When I visited Saudi Arabia and parts of Egypt on a holiday, I was forced to stay in a compound and it was recommended that I do not exit without an armed guard just because I am a different skin colour and because I am a non-muslim. However, when I went to the Poland to live for 1 year, I couldn't get a bar job there because I wasn't a native Pole.

My point is this: Irish citizens deserve to get jobs in their own country and do not deserve to be thrown out of their jobs to foreigners who get work on the basis of low wages. Our government has allowed our bosses to do this to us.

You are mis-interpreting the whole arguement here: If foreigners do not challenge their bosses to make sure that they are getting the minimum wage, then nobody else is going to do it for them. Only fair, isn't it? But they don't! So how can they expect anyone else to go fight their battles for them? The complaints board is there and is open to EVERYONE but if they do not make use of it, then that's their problem.

The min wage for every country is protected under E.U law but the truth is that many foreigners don't wish to challenge their bosses about their wages because 3 Euro an hour to them is literally like Gold.

Also, what if I go into a Polish Restaurant and ask for a job, will I get it before a Polish person will? I certainly don't think so.

Any existing Irish workers in their jobs should be protected by a legislation from loosing them or being made redundant. That is simply my point.

by Mago Thu Nov 10, 2005 17:56

You have found yourself being discriminated.
Discrimination did beget hate.
Hate begets xenofobia.
Xenofobia will beget hatred.

by Marcin Fri Nov 11, 2005 15:49

Mago,

comment on site policy removed see ed guidelines -- thanks 1 of IMC ed
I am trying to explain how things work here. If people come to Ireland thinking this is heaven well then very rapidly people receive a reality check once they step on to this green land. If you think that Irish law and social welfare systems are fair and equitible for Irish people themselves then you are misguided. Don't feel that people who come to Ireland are the only ones who are being treated inequitably. Irish people too are discriminated and treated inequitably. Take for example a 25 year only male, who is living at home with his parents because he is on a low wage and cannot afford to buy or rent a house and he is made redundant. He will receive unemployment benefit for 15 months and after that it is stopped. He can apply for unemployment assistance and his parents will be means tested. If his parents who are not middle class but are earning marginally out side the means test rate then he will receive nothing from social welfare. He is extremely poor because he has no money but social welfare don't care because the rule is the rule and he is not eligible. So join the club. The social welfare system in Ireland will not tell Irish people what they are entitled in order to make it difficult for them to obtain the benefits and it is only by word of mouth and a lot of unnecessary stress and hardship that they eventually find out. I know this from experience. If you come to Ireland as a large group you probably find out much quicker what you are entitled to because you have people working on your behalf. Unemployment assistance is not what most people in Ireland aspire to. The unemployment assistance rate may seem high to people from distant lands but the reality is that the cost of living is so high here that you would exist rather than live a dignified life on unemployment assistance. You would just about have enough to prevent you from starving and thats about it. I must say goodbye I can't keep up this conversation because it is perceived by the editor as perhaps true but not politically correct..

by Mago Fri Nov 11, 2005 17:41

Unfairness of SW system is there before May 1st, 2004

The hardship for everyone, Irish, Germans, ...
you could have been treated unfairly, regardless of nationality
I know this from experiences, both for nationals and foreigners // let me say, maybe especially for foreigners if they happen to find a prejudiced officer
The same difficulties/opportunities to be informed.

I was that 25 year old male in a similar limbo in my country of origin. Parents are a factor. Faulty systems, but not based on nationality. Not within the EU, obviously. If we are trying to make redundant the words Irish, Spanish, ..., before the words workers, people.

The comparative grievance is:
* My origin is taken into account here. (It's the concept more than anything else, of being potentially affected). The actual legislation is written. It's turbid, intentional, biased.
* But not in regards of my contributions. I'm subject to the same tax system - since day 1 -, higher system as "non-contributory payments" are in the game (why shouldn't I complain about Irish-British abusing the system?), same rents, price of pints, ...

I'm totally adapted to the country I am living in. Why should my entitlements be questioned because I lived abroad at the time?

by R. Isible Sat Nov 26, 2005 21:59

QUOTE: This European project went into a cul-de-sack trying to integrate its physical expansion with social equality.

Like the accession states you mean?! The only hope for the European project /is/ social equality. That's the only point of it -- a life ordered around the notion of equality. Otherwise we may as well fall back to internecine squabbling based on nation states trying to squeeze comparative advantage.

by vngelis Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:58

Exporting jobs abroad and importing jobs at home are the twin track policy of mulitinational corporations. The race to the bottom and the expansion of the EU further eastwards are two sides of the same coin. If workers cannot impose a closed shop ie decide who is hired and who is fired, the tendency of economic development is to replace all the strong unions with globalised workers, of multiply nationalities which the companies will then divide as they rule them.
The problem is that the 'left' and the union leaders are interested in co-managing the crisis not changing the balance of forces on behalf of the labour force. The TGWU in London has sold the Gate Gourment workers down the river, refusing to call for secondary action fearful of sequestration of funds. Their is only one law in life. Those who labour must rule

by janis berzins Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:05

if you come to latvia and want to work in irish bub (we have lots of them), you sure will get a job... maybe you need just basic latvian skills...
unemployment in latvia (especialy rural) is huge and people are desparete, no jobs... lot of high skilled latvians working lowskill work in ireland...
it is EU policy and by joinig it you agreed to take all the shaite it cames with, not just beneficial side of it...
latvian people who work in ireland are affraid to loose their low paid jobs, cause it is at least job... so no strikes ar smth else possible from those migrant workers....

by Irish Worker Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:59

It looks like the unions are preparing themselves to sell out future Irish Ferries workers. They'll cobble together a deal to allow Irish Ferries get out of the headline news and be free to initiate their race to the bottom some time in the future.
Shameful stuff but not surprising when you consider they already sold out the catering and cleaning staff.
And all to get their grubby little legs back around the Partnership table.
I suppose the 'day of action' will be cancelled tomorrow.