Are people selfish?

by Jim Thu Jan 08, 2009 15:53

Anywhere radical socialist experiments have been attempted they have invariably led to the personality cult of a tyrant in charge of a totalitarian elitist state, using abritrary arrest, imprisonment, torture and execution and forced labour to maintain its rule over a silenced, impoverished and starving underclass.

In 1960 more than 22 million people perished from famine as a direct result of the collectivist economic policies enforced by the Maoist dictatorship. This was the greatest loss of life in a famine in one year in any country in all of recorded history. It is estimated that the attempt to establish a communist utopia in China led to more than 60 million deaths due to war, suicide, execution, overwork, disease and starvation.

To enforce radical socialist ideology requires an apparatus to control every though word and action of every human being through mass terror.

by Jimbob Thu Jan 08, 2009 23:03

All people are somewhat selfish. After all, we can only truly see life from our own perspective, though some of us are more willing to try to see other people's perspectives than others.
I don't think that it's mostly a selfish urge that plagues us, in terms of self interest, but rather short-sightedness, brought on by poor education, a dumbed down media and the poor level of public discourse.

We are at a stage where people think more often of themselves as consumers than as citizens, and this shapes their thinking in their interactions with the rest of society. A citizen has rights and responsibilities. A consumer is a different animal.
A consumer wants to get good deals,

OBSTACLES:

Compassion can be seen as a limited resource (for busy fearful people) and how do we apportion it?
To ourselves, our families, and friends. Some stranger we have never seen is far removed from that, and doesn't feel at all real.
In our fast moving 'spectacle filled' world, few people make the time to stop and really consider that the child in Gaza, or the woman starving in Somalia, is a real person, as real as their own parents and friends, rather than fleeting like the characters in the TV ads.

Also, look at the direct, consequences for failing to have compassion for the further away stranger. (I'll do this by contrast)

Stranger A is a Palestinian. If we ignore his plight, he may die or live out his life in a giant concentration camp. But we won't be there to see it, or hear his condemnation.

Stranger B works in a factory in Ireland which manufactures hi-tech electronic components, including those used in attack helicopters, missiles, and fighter and bomber jets.

If Stranger B happens to live in your home town, or even two doors away, you will experience more direct condemnation from him, if you so much as hold a banner outside his place of work, damning their work. Stranger A, of course can die in isolation, without ever getting to condemn you for ignoring him.

Even our ignorance of how our spending choices affects global trade, and third world producers as well as our own, is fairly widespread compared to those who shop ethically.

As good little consumers, we all want to 'shop around' and get the best bargain. This is repeated over and over again like a mantra.
But very few people remember much about good service or fair trade, or even the sensibility of keeping jobs local.
If we all want to buy cheap plastic crap from China, then that's what we'll get, and many people won't make the connection between a longer dole queue and consumer habits of favouring imports from countries paying slave wages or cutting corners in production.
We've learned to disconnect ourselves from the idea that these things come home to roost.
If we don't support local traders, we'll end up dealing with multinationals, who can leave when they see a better deal.

So the question isn't so much whether we're selfish or not, but rather, how brave , and aware we are.

A lot of people will act more compassionately, if we catch their attention, and show them that it's not so difficult to change our habits.

by Kevin Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:22

Hi Jimbob,
Although I think there is a lot of truth in what you are saying I think you overemphaise the matter of us all being consumers. I realse that we are much more so nowadays but the notion of us seeing ourselves as consumers is very much based on us hiding other aspects of our lives that are in fact also central to who and what we are (and incidently to whether we can be cnsumers or not). What I mean is that we are workers too ... I am not sure we can talk about how to engage with people in poltics - particularly in radical politics - if we continue to ignore our 'ecomomic' reality. I accept that none of what i am saying is fashionable but nonetheless lots of us go to jobs where we are subjected to an authoritarian enviroment that we have a lot of difficulty escaping.... This environment and the fact that many have to accept it and put up with is essential to creating the passivity that the 'consumerism mentality' exploits ... Although I am all for encouraging compassion I think that for many the problems is more basic to how we are forced to have to lives in capitalims - unless we tackle and address these issues and encourage fundamental political activity by people at a grassroots level, then much of our effort will be waste - I fear.

by Jimbob Sat Jan 10, 2009 00:36

I don't forget for one minute that we are workers too. Part of my point, is that when we are buying anything, a lot of us FORGET about the workers that produced it.

Also, recent encounters I've had with people, reinforce my feeling, that the majority of people are more likely to push for their consumer rights than their workers rights. (although for the most part we are too timid in asserting any of our rights).

I couldn't decipher the second half of your comment as clearly as I would like.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my original post, (which was done at an unsocial hour).
I feel that a lot of the " pressure" to live in a capitalist society is more imagined than real.
I blame our government for a lot, and then other parts of the blame have to go to how we decided to go with the flow ourselves.
It's certainly a combination of the economic policies formulated at government level and the economic /financial decisions we ourselves make.
I mean, the government and their IBEC friends can tell us all we need to have pensions, and get one fast, but they didn't march us down to the financial advisor and make us sign it. Some of us don't bother with pensions, cos, rather than watch the mind numbing crap on TV, we've informed ourselves, and thought, nope, the banks will just end up with our pension funds anyway, cos it's a rigged game, and they'll have it handed on a plate (think, recapitalistion and there's NOBODY, actually stopping you from making alternative choices in some areas
e.g. No, I won't gamble my money on a pension fund (which might be invested in the arms trade, GM crops, and World Bank bonds), instead, I will not bother with wasting money on a TV, a fancy car, fancy holidays, and instead, I'll make sure I feed and educate my kids, and build a wee greenhouse out the back to grow some of my own food, insulate the hell out of the house (all that white polystyrene we used to throw away eh?) and aim to reduce my living costs, rather than slave away attempting to keep up with what other people tell me I must have.
There's little required for that other than will power to ignore the bleating of sheep.

Other problems are not so easily fixed, but if we try to make ourselves a bit more self sufficient, and less panicked, we can start to mobilise and organise better on other issues.

That's where the idea of being aware, informed and compassionate comes into it.
Capitalism isn't some unstoppable monster, and I think it can be tamed, but I think it needs a huge sea-change in public consciousness, and that involves, debunking the myths that rob people of confidence, create barriers to solidarity, and innovation.

by catlady Sat Jan 10, 2009 03:02

we are selfish.
any effort we as a race make to save anything, be it tigers or turf, is done with the expectation of direct benefit to ourselves as a species.
as a race.
as a gender
as a welfare system
as a ?????????????????????
what motivates you?????????????????????

we are despicable as a race because we know better.(but choose to ignore it)
bring on that meteorite!

by Jimbob Sat Jan 10, 2009 09:43

When we're not being totally exploited by others, people make time to help others. Every day I see small acts of charity with no material benefit to the giver.
It's when we're worried we don't have enough for ourselves, that we are less likely to help each other.
Hence, 'my mortgage' 'the price of X, Y,Z ' going up are factors that make us less helpful to one another.
Also, the individualisation brought about in the 80's reduced the trust we shared between each other.

by Michael - Human League Sun Jan 11, 2009 02:33

The year 1979 brought a new horror to The people of England with the advent of a Scourge Named Thatcher .

Thatcher quite simply was the greatest Manipulater of her era and the same Scourge caused Havoc in everything She put her Dirty Nose in .

She is the ONE who taught people to say No to Everything thus nursing the greedy society amongst us today .

Thatcher would rise a row in a Grave yard with her obnoxious behaviour and an arrogance that is second to none .

It was not long before her arrogance caught on in this country where Greed was encouraged and the word NO became the basic word in our vocabularly.

One could see arrogance at its best in Government Departments which ran through same depts faster than the speed of sound .

Thatcher will be best remembered for her Falklands Invasion on 2nd April 1982 an invasion that was totally geared for her own political agenda .

And thats only a minute description of that Scourge ,

by Alan - none Sun Jan 11, 2009 23:16

Maggie Thatcher was a Thug hiding behind a system to which the British People Elected the Conservative Party .

She was a war monger and responsible for a lot of trouble in the North Of Ireland with her No No No attitude .

Her Policies closed down Steel Works in Sheffield ,Car Manufacturing Plants in The Midlands, to name but a few .
And Hill Billy Hilary Clinton wondered why Borack Obama Won the American Presidental Election ?

She, Thatcher put millions of her own people on the Dole and on their way to nothing .

by Maria B Sun Jan 11, 2009 23:33

Mrs. Thatcher also known as The Iron Lady was a good example of when you have a cause and make up your mind you will not deviate from that cause.

As she famously said THE LADY WILL NOT BE TURNED. Good for her. A strong woman to be proud of.

She will never be forgotten and showed a lot of men how to do things during her days in power.

We need more like her. Good on you Maggie.

by Peter Fri Feb 06, 2009 19:54

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) to the rescue:

"The term anarchism derives from the Greek ἀναρχος, anarchos, meaning 'without rulers' ..."

Reckless and grossly deceitful "Rulers" practicing corruption, tyranny, and extreme lawlessness from behind a fraudulent mask of "democracy" and "the rule of law": NO!

Responsible "Public Servants": YES!

Is the last category above what anarchists are generally seeking?